Almost time, goodbye big-bore(450)

loftyair
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loftyair
Edited Date/Time 9/13/2018 4:46pm
Just like back in the day. The 250 is getting close to almost always being a faster bike on any mx/sx track than the open. Other than Peick, most these new kids are actually faster longer on the small bike. A few more years, goodbye (too much motor) bike!
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Rickyisms
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Rickyisms 9/12/2018 7:11pm
9/12/2018 7:11pm
you must be drinking all your beers that you bought for MXDN.
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Racer111
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Racer111 9/12/2018 7:11pm
9/12/2018 7:11pm Edited Date/Time 9/12/2018 7:14pm
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s sold. They are less maintenance than the 250’s. You have to ride the piss out of a 250F. You are thinking of Pro’s. The majority of people aren’t pro’s. Only about 1% of those!

The 25+ and up prefer the 450 because you don’t have to ride as hard to go the same speed as riding the 250 on the edge.
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Jeremy Macbeth 9/12/2018 7:11pm
9/12/2018 7:11pm
So, as we set out this year to defeat the divisive forces that would take freedom away, I want to say those fighting words for everyone within the sound of my voice to hear and to heed, and especially for you, Mr. loftyair:

'From my cold, dead hands!'
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Fresh
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Fresh 9/12/2018 8:36pm
9/12/2018 8:36pm
Racer111 wrote:
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s...
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s sold. They are less maintenance than the 250’s. You have to ride the piss out of a 250F. You are thinking of Pro’s. The majority of people aren’t pro’s. Only about 1% of those!

The 25+ and up prefer the 450 because you don’t have to ride as hard to go the same speed as riding the 250 on the edge.
2T’s are much less maintenance than 4T’s and they have lower production cost but that didn’t stop manufacturers producing four strokes only. Also you gotta remember from 40+ a large chunk of the population are going 250’s to avoid the whiskey throttle
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kiwifan
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kiwifan 9/12/2018 8:39pm
9/12/2018 8:39pm
Racer111 wrote:
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s...
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s sold. They are less maintenance than the 250’s. You have to ride the piss out of a 250F. You are thinking of Pro’s. The majority of people aren’t pro’s. Only about 1% of those!

The 25+ and up prefer the 450 because you don’t have to ride as hard to go the same speed as riding the 250 on the edge.
Fresh wrote:
2T’s are much less maintenance than 4T’s and they have lower production cost but that didn’t stop manufacturers producing four strokes only. Also you gotta remember...
2T’s are much less maintenance than 4T’s and they have lower production cost but that didn’t stop manufacturers producing four strokes only. Also you gotta remember from 40+ a large chunk of the population are going 250’s to avoid the whiskey throttle
Interesting view, in my riding area a lot of the older guys are going from 250's and 350's to 450's
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jeffro503
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jeffro503 9/12/2018 10:01pm
9/12/2018 10:01pm
Racer111 wrote:
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s...
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s sold. They are less maintenance than the 250’s. You have to ride the piss out of a 250F. You are thinking of Pro’s. The majority of people aren’t pro’s. Only about 1% of those!

The 25+ and up prefer the 450 because you don’t have to ride as hard to go the same speed as riding the 250 on the edge.
Fresh wrote:
2T’s are much less maintenance than 4T’s and they have lower production cost but that didn’t stop manufacturers producing four strokes only. Also you gotta remember...
2T’s are much less maintenance than 4T’s and they have lower production cost but that didn’t stop manufacturers producing four strokes only. Also you gotta remember from 40+ a large chunk of the population are going 250’s to avoid the whiskey throttle
kiwifan wrote:
Interesting view, in my riding area a lot of the older guys are going from 250's and 350's to 450's
Opposite here in the NW usa. Lot's of vet guy's I have seen step off the 450's and down to 250F's. I kinda did it a little different and went 250 2 stroke. But as far as that goes.....these newer 450's are so fast now day's , that when you push yourself ( in your 40's and 50's ).....they can get a little scary with a little whiskey throttle. Has bitten a lot of my friend's , which swapped to a 250F....and they couldn't be happier.
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BobPA
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BobPA 9/12/2018 10:03pm
9/12/2018 10:03pm
Fresh wrote:
2T’s are much less maintenance than 4T’s and they have lower production cost but that didn’t stop manufacturers producing four strokes only. Also you gotta remember...
2T’s are much less maintenance than 4T’s and they have lower production cost but that didn’t stop manufacturers producing four strokes only. Also you gotta remember from 40+ a large chunk of the population are going 250’s to avoid the whiskey throttle
kiwifan wrote:
Interesting view, in my riding area a lot of the older guys are going from 250's and 350's to 450's
jeffro503 wrote:
Opposite here in the NW usa. Lot's of vet guy's I have seen step off the 450's and down to 250F's. I kinda did it a...
Opposite here in the NW usa. Lot's of vet guy's I have seen step off the 450's and down to 250F's. I kinda did it a little different and went 250 2 stroke. But as far as that goes.....these newer 450's are so fast now day's , that when you push yourself ( in your 40's and 50's ).....they can get a little scary with a little whiskey throttle. Has bitten a lot of my friend's , which swapped to a 250F....and they couldn't be happier.
Total opposite here. Only people on 250's are the young guys.
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jeffro503
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jeffro503 9/12/2018 10:04pm
9/12/2018 10:04pm
Racer111 wrote:
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s...
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s sold. They are less maintenance than the 250’s. You have to ride the piss out of a 250F. You are thinking of Pro’s. The majority of people aren’t pro’s. Only about 1% of those!

The 25+ and up prefer the 450 because you don’t have to ride as hard to go the same speed as riding the 250 on the edge.
You need to go hit some big Vet races , then come back here and report what you hear. What you just said isn't true for a lot of folks.
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thorns
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thorns 9/12/2018 10:17pm
9/12/2018 10:17pm
450's will be here until electric bikes rule the roost.
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#434
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#434 9/12/2018 10:25pm
9/12/2018 10:25pm
Does anyone have the actual numbers of how many mx bikes are sold and what the ratio of 250s to 450s is?

Btw I switched back to 250s. My yz250f has enough power for the tracks around here and I like the lighter feel.
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swtwtwtw
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swtwtwtw 9/12/2018 10:26pm
9/12/2018 10:26pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Opposite here in the NW usa. Lot's of vet guy's I have seen step off the 450's and down to 250F's. I kinda did it a...
Opposite here in the NW usa. Lot's of vet guy's I have seen step off the 450's and down to 250F's. I kinda did it a little different and went 250 2 stroke. But as far as that goes.....these newer 450's are so fast now day's , that when you push yourself ( in your 40's and 50's ).....they can get a little scary with a little whiskey throttle. Has bitten a lot of my friend's , which swapped to a 250F....and they couldn't be happier.
Good thread OP. I agree with Jeffro. I did that myself to rehab from an injury, but when I started getting back up to speed and began racing again (I’m not much of a pro practice rider) I was able to turn quicker laptimes on the 450, so I went back to it. Yes it has already bit me hard, never had that issue with the 250f.

Now if I had a 7000 dollar motor in my 250f I would have stuck with it for sure. ?
scottydogmx 9/12/2018 10:40pm
9/12/2018 10:40pm
thorns wrote:
450's will be here until electric bikes rule the roost.
Booooooooo! I hope I'm not around to see it.
The noise of 40 electric bikes hammering up the start straight will really get everyones heart pumping. BlinkSadUnsure
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jeffro503
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jeffro503 9/12/2018 11:22pm
9/12/2018 11:22pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Opposite here in the NW usa. Lot's of vet guy's I have seen step off the 450's and down to 250F's. I kinda did it a...
Opposite here in the NW usa. Lot's of vet guy's I have seen step off the 450's and down to 250F's. I kinda did it a little different and went 250 2 stroke. But as far as that goes.....these newer 450's are so fast now day's , that when you push yourself ( in your 40's and 50's ).....they can get a little scary with a little whiskey throttle. Has bitten a lot of my friend's , which swapped to a 250F....and they couldn't be happier.
swtwtwtw wrote:
Good thread OP. I agree with Jeffro. I did that myself to rehab from an injury, but when I started getting back up to speed and...
Good thread OP. I agree with Jeffro. I did that myself to rehab from an injury, but when I started getting back up to speed and began racing again (I’m not much of a pro practice rider) I was able to turn quicker laptimes on the 450, so I went back to it. Yes it has already bit me hard, never had that issue with the 250f.

Now if I had a 7000 dollar motor in my 250f I would have stuck with it for sure. ?
I really think it all depends on the rider himself , skill , size , aggressive or not , what kind of racing he's doing...ect....

I'm thinking real hard on getting a 19' 450 , and I told myself I'd never get one again. But just like I always do , I change my mind like 4 times a week.

But...like I mentioned before , especially in the OTMX races ( where motos are long ) quite a few guys stepped down to a 250F. But again..... depends on what you want to do with the bike you have.

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Racer111
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Racer111 9/13/2018 12:37am
9/13/2018 12:37am
Racer111 wrote:
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s...
You must be 16! 450’s aren’t going anywhere. I’d argue that in the general population of 20 and up, there are more 450’s sold than 250’s sold. They are less maintenance than the 250’s. You have to ride the piss out of a 250F. You are thinking of Pro’s. The majority of people aren’t pro’s. Only about 1% of those!

The 25+ and up prefer the 450 because you don’t have to ride as hard to go the same speed as riding the 250 on the edge.
jeffro503 wrote:
You need to go hit some big Vet races , then come back here and report what you hear. What you just said isn't true for...
You need to go hit some big Vet races , then come back here and report what you hear. What you just said isn't true for a lot of folks.
I live in NC. I race here, KY, TN, GA, SC and Florida. The overwhelming majority are on 450’s. It’s the whole reason I went from a 250F to a 450F. I was getting crushed on starts and having to ride like a demon to come through the pack. Now my starts are better and I can ride my race.
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kevin204
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kevin204 9/13/2018 12:55am
9/13/2018 12:55am
#434 wrote:
I always thought that this guy was a genius: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/09/13/287001/s1200_csteel_29_2.jpg[/img] Yoshiharu Nakayama. Pic from pulpmx ([url=http://pulpmx.com/2012/10/11/gps-classic-steel-29-1998-yamaha-yz400f/]http://pulpmx.com/2012/10/11/gps-classic-steel-29-1998-yamaha-yz400f/[/url]) He thought 400cc would be the right displacement to compete...
I always thought that this guy was a genius:

Yoshiharu Nakayama. Pic from pulpmx (http://pulpmx.com/2012/10/11/gps-classic-steel-29-1998-yamaha-yz400f/)

He thought 400cc would be the right displacement to compete against 250 two strokes. Why in the hell did they (Honda?) go to 450cc? 400 is maybe the perfect number..
Meh, the current 350s are faster than 250 two strokes anyways, so it's not like a 400 would have given them much more of a shot.. maybe kept them closer for a couple extra years. But with the constant development of the four strokes and stagnation of two stroke tech, it was only a matter of time.
#434
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#434 9/13/2018 1:12am
9/13/2018 1:12am Edited Date/Time 9/13/2018 1:13am
kevin204 wrote:
Meh, the current 350s are faster than 250 two strokes anyways, so it's not like a 400 would have given them much more of a shot...
Meh, the current 350s are faster than 250 two strokes anyways, so it's not like a 400 would have given them much more of a shot.. maybe kept them closer for a couple extra years. But with the constant development of the four strokes and stagnation of two stroke tech, it was only a matter of time.
We're talking about 450 being too much, not which displacement rule would have been fair.
I think 400 was a good number and maybe it would be a good idea to go back. That wouldn't require a huge change in engine architecture from the manufactures and reduce the power of the bikes by 10%.
kb228
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kb228 9/13/2018 3:56am
9/13/2018 3:56am
only little girls think 450s have too much power. Grow a pair and ride it!
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ga_pike
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ga_pike 9/13/2018 4:45am
9/13/2018 4:45am
What about 350 indoors and 450/Open outdoors? You could give the manufacturers 2* years to develop a prototype and then another 2* years to run it without restrictions. 5th year would be back to the standard rules. Then for outdoors, they can either stay on the 350 or shift to the larger displacement if desired. I think you'd see many guys stick to the 350 if this were the case.
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Mossy
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Mossy 9/13/2018 5:08am
9/13/2018 5:08am
ga_pike wrote:
What about 350 indoors and 450/Open outdoors? You could give the manufacturers 2* years to develop a prototype and then another 2* years to run it...
What about 350 indoors and 450/Open outdoors? You could give the manufacturers 2* years to develop a prototype and then another 2* years to run it without restrictions. 5th year would be back to the standard rules. Then for outdoors, they can either stay on the 350 or shift to the larger displacement if desired. I think you'd see many guys stick to the 350 if this were the case.
Sounds like you just made the sport that much more expensive. So now teams that want to run Supercross and The Outdoors will need to have two different bikes for the premier class? No thanks. We don’t have enough spots for riders as it is.
Timo_2824
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Timo_2824 9/13/2018 5:33am
9/13/2018 5:33am
I'm thinking hard about a YZ450FX, with the tuner app you could dial back the power, but still have the 450 longevity. I'm tired of always trying to get more from my 250f: Exhaust, hotcams, big bore.... I like the thought of turning down the HP in the trees, but if I'm at the sand dunes the ability to get on my phone and dial back up!
observeroffacts
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observeroffacts 9/13/2018 5:37am
9/13/2018 5:37am
kb228 wrote:
only little girls think 450s have too much power. Grow a pair and ride it!
This opinion is shared by many Vet C riders...

I was watching Justin Cooper lay down lap times within one second of Eli Tomac all year long on tracks with gnarly uphills, off cambers etc. A 250 has plenty of power for anyone who has the skill and ability to use the top end (or ride a gear high and carry momentum). A modern 250f will do both with ease.

Fitness plays a huge factor in safety and many of the older folks on a 450 ride one because it’s easier to go faster, but they’re also not in “great shape”. When you’re tired the 450 is way easier to get into trouble on.
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bvm111
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bvm111 9/13/2018 5:58am
9/13/2018 5:58am
Small bore has always been “faster” when ridden properly due to the increased momentum required in the corners. Ask Dave Thorpe what it was like to get smoked by a 125 at the des nations.
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Stuntman949
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Stuntman949 9/13/2018 7:14am
9/13/2018 7:14am
kevin204 wrote:
Meh, the current 350s are faster than 250 two strokes anyways, so it's not like a 400 would have given them much more of a shot...
Meh, the current 350s are faster than 250 two strokes anyways, so it's not like a 400 would have given them much more of a shot.. maybe kept them closer for a couple extra years. But with the constant development of the four strokes and stagnation of two stroke tech, it was only a matter of time.
You looking for a tilly, buddy?
Racer111
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Racer111 9/13/2018 8:45am
9/13/2018 8:45am
kb228 wrote:
only little girls think 450s have too much power. Grow a pair and ride it!
observeroffacts wrote:
This opinion is shared by many Vet C riders... I was watching Justin Cooper lay down lap times within one second of Eli Tomac all year...
This opinion is shared by many Vet C riders...

I was watching Justin Cooper lay down lap times within one second of Eli Tomac all year long on tracks with gnarly uphills, off cambers etc. A 250 has plenty of power for anyone who has the skill and ability to use the top end (or ride a gear high and carry momentum). A modern 250f will do both with ease.

Fitness plays a huge factor in safety and many of the older folks on a 450 ride one because it’s easier to go faster, but they’re also not in “great shape”. When you’re tired the 450 is way easier to get into trouble on.
Riiiiight!! You were watching a top pro on a FACTORY 250. You can’t buy those. And it was a little more than a second a lap that Cooper was putting in. Most races they did 13-15 laps depending on the track. That means if they were both racing together, Cooper got beat by 15-20 seconds. That’s not close at that level.

“There is no replacement for displacement.“ I don’t care who you are.
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peltier626
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peltier626 9/13/2018 9:02am
9/13/2018 9:02am
I did lap time averages on the top twenty riders in some nationals and the 250's and 450' were very close. Southwick the top twenty 250's were faster than the top twenty 450's. Unless weight or laziness is a factor the 250F is quite sufficient.
seth505
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seth505 9/13/2018 9:07am
9/13/2018 9:07am
kb228 wrote:
only little girls think 450s have too much power. Grow a pair and ride it!
What if you pass them on a 125, are you still a little girl?
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 9/13/2018 9:08am
9/13/2018 9:08am
As long as proMX is about advertising and selling new motorcycles and not about seeing who is the best motorcycle racer, then the 450's will have a class to themselves. That is until the current manufacturer's participating decide to switch their promotional efforts to the electrics.

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