Dirt Rider 450 shootout

ML512
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10/4/2017 9:58pm
TXDirt wrote:
Disclose the ad revenue they get.

And where is Alta in this. Sorry. This shootout is incomplete without it.
ML512 wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Honda only spends with one core-Motocross media outlet in the past few years and that's been Racer X. They've never spent...
As far as I'm aware, Honda only spends with one core-Motocross media outlet in the past few years and that's been Racer X. They've never spent a dime with Vital since we started....

We've been included in RFPs (request for proposals) but have never gotten an ad deal from any of those.

As for the Alta, it's designed to be a 250F competitor, not a 450. Having ridden an Alta, it would get dead last in a 450 Shootout, simple.
gsxr6 wrote:
Bam. Question answered. Electric won't truly take over until the range, weight and hp line up with the 450 competition. What's sustainable top.speed on the Alta...
Bam. Question answered. Electric won't truly take over until the range, weight and hp line up with the 450 competition. What's sustainable top.speed on the Alta? 60 65 with stock gearing?looking at dyno curves it looks super flat after 55mph . Is that a huge signoff feeling in the top of the speed range? Cuz a 450 will pull hard to 80, and pass 90 if you dare with stock gearing. So the alta would get destroyed in an offroad shootout as.well.....an esp any type of racing with long straights ala hare and hound or desert style terrain.
What stock geared Motocross 450 passes 90? Laughing hell, last I check I don't think they pass 80...

I rode the Alta on a track, not wide open down a pit lane so I have no answer for that.
colintrax
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10/4/2017 10:44pm
gsxr6 wrote:
Bam. Question answered. Electric won't truly take over until the range, weight and hp line up with the 450 competition. What's sustainable top.speed on the Alta...
Bam. Question answered. Electric won't truly take over until the range, weight and hp line up with the 450 competition. What's sustainable top.speed on the Alta? 60 65 with stock gearing?looking at dyno curves it looks super flat after 55mph . Is that a huge signoff feeling in the top of the speed range? Cuz a 450 will pull hard to 80, and pass 90 if you dare with stock gearing. So the alta would get destroyed in an offroad shootout as.well.....an esp any type of racing with long straights ala hare and hound or desert style terrain.
Hahaha what?? 90?? Come on dude. Most moto bikes top out around 70. The alta does 65. It's not intended to compete with off road bikes because it's not an off road bike, it's a motocross bike.
gsxr6
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10/4/2017 11:34pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2017 11:35pm
Dirt bike has the crf450rx at 93 mph. The rear sprocket is a tooth smaller on the mx model, same gearbox. 450s do 70 in third nearing the rev limiter. I find it really hard to believe vitals top mx test rider doesn't even comprehend the top speeds of the bikes he rides. U guys crack me up. Yes stock geared 450s get passed 90mph.
gsxr6
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10/4/2017 11:38pm
I have also seen Dyno charts of then new 2014 yzf450 turning the Dyno 72mph and in third gear. It was stock geared.

The Shop

gsxr6
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10/4/2017 11:48pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2017 11:49pm
Here in a review 85mph for the identical gearbox, bigger rear sprocket than the mx model crf450rx is mentioned,
and yes it can be overrevved past 85mph. The tooth smaller rear sprocket of the mx model gives it an even higher top speed.
305FC250
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10/5/2017 3:44am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2017 3:48am
What changed on the Honda between 2017 and 2018? As far as I know nothing significant changed... How is it magically dominating shootouts? I'm not gona jump on the whole "Honda is paying for it" thing but last year they were what, 3rd-4th place in most of the shootouts and this year with only minor tweaks they've gone 2 for 2 so far. Doesn't make sense to me.

Anytime I see KTM and Husky spread that far apart the shootout loses all credibility imo. Husky last period is a joke.
Motofinne
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10/5/2017 4:53am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2017 4:55am
305FC250 wrote:
What changed on the Honda between 2017 and 2018? As far as I know nothing significant changed... How is it magically dominating shootouts? I'm not gona...
What changed on the Honda between 2017 and 2018? As far as I know nothing significant changed... How is it magically dominating shootouts? I'm not gona jump on the whole "Honda is paying for it" thing but last year they were what, 3rd-4th place in most of the shootouts and this year with only minor tweaks they've gone 2 for 2 so far. Doesn't make sense to me.

Anytime I see KTM and Husky spread that far apart the shootout loses all credibility imo. Husky last period is a joke.
They changed the engine mounts and the stiffened up the front forks with stiffer springs.

I have to agree with you on the Husqvarna comment. Hard to take a shootout seriously when a bike like that finishes last. Either the line up of riders are somewhat biased or something was wrong with the bike.
MBR
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10/5/2017 5:17am
305FC250 wrote:
What changed on the Honda between 2017 and 2018? As far as I know nothing significant changed... How is it magically dominating shootouts? I'm not gona...
What changed on the Honda between 2017 and 2018? As far as I know nothing significant changed... How is it magically dominating shootouts? I'm not gona jump on the whole "Honda is paying for it" thing but last year they were what, 3rd-4th place in most of the shootouts and this year with only minor tweaks they've gone 2 for 2 so far. Doesn't make sense to me.

Anytime I see KTM and Husky spread that far apart the shootout loses all credibility imo. Husky last period is a joke.
Motofinne wrote:
They changed the engine mounts and the stiffened up the front forks with stiffer springs. I have to agree with you on the Husqvarna comment. Hard...
They changed the engine mounts and the stiffened up the front forks with stiffer springs.

I have to agree with you on the Husqvarna comment. Hard to take a shootout seriously when a bike like that finishes last. Either the line up of riders are somewhat biased or something was wrong with the bike.
Some people seemed a bit angry after Honda won the Vital shootout, but since then Honda won both Keefer's and Dirt Riders shootouts Wink For me the three new components: stiffer springs (too soft fork 2017), RX engine mounts (more forgiving frame) and new ecu maps (2017 hit a bit too hard from the bottom for average Joe) were things that needed work on Honda (and clutch). If you ride KTM/Husqvarna back to back you will notice surprisingly big difference between those bikes, but I'm not sure if it is enough to drop it to behind the rest of the bikes.
Madmax31
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10/5/2017 5:21am
More importantly why would anyone read or buy Dirt Rider. They suck ass since dumping Keefer. F them and their shitty rag.
Motofinne
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10/5/2017 5:23am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2017 5:26am
305FC250 wrote:
What changed on the Honda between 2017 and 2018? As far as I know nothing significant changed... How is it magically dominating shootouts? I'm not gona...
What changed on the Honda between 2017 and 2018? As far as I know nothing significant changed... How is it magically dominating shootouts? I'm not gona jump on the whole "Honda is paying for it" thing but last year they were what, 3rd-4th place in most of the shootouts and this year with only minor tweaks they've gone 2 for 2 so far. Doesn't make sense to me.

Anytime I see KTM and Husky spread that far apart the shootout loses all credibility imo. Husky last period is a joke.
Motofinne wrote:
They changed the engine mounts and the stiffened up the front forks with stiffer springs. I have to agree with you on the Husqvarna comment. Hard...
They changed the engine mounts and the stiffened up the front forks with stiffer springs.

I have to agree with you on the Husqvarna comment. Hard to take a shootout seriously when a bike like that finishes last. Either the line up of riders are somewhat biased or something was wrong with the bike.
MBR wrote:
Some people seemed a bit angry after Honda won the Vital shootout, but since then Honda won both Keefer's and Dirt Riders shootouts ;) For me...
Some people seemed a bit angry after Honda won the Vital shootout, but since then Honda won both Keefer's and Dirt Riders shootouts Wink For me the three new components: stiffer springs (too soft fork 2017), RX engine mounts (more forgiving frame) and new ecu maps (2017 hit a bit too hard from the bottom for average Joe) were things that needed work on Honda (and clutch). If you ride KTM/Husqvarna back to back you will notice surprisingly big difference between those bikes, but I'm not sure if it is enough to drop it to behind the rest of the bikes.
Yeah the people that claim that the Husqvarna and KTM are the same bikes are wrong, the difference is surprisingly big! My main complaint with Dirt Rider placing the Husky last is that no other publication has done that. It clearly indicates that something was up with the bike or something was up with the test riders.

And it isn't a surprise that the Honda has won most shootouts, it was a really good bike last year and like with all bikes even "small" changes can make a good bike a great bike!
10/5/2017 6:21am
Ive enjoyed all the various shootouts.
It's a lesson for me on how important "snap" is to test riders in power vs how important real hp is.

The kawi has a lot of work to go to be same power as ktm and crf... but still has reviewed well in all tests.

but all the reviews have pointed out that any bike is good. Throw in a piston and and slip on for the rmz, Get the suspension done and it's close.

I don't know many people who keep their bikes stock (which more should) so ultimately the bikes are all soo good... buy what makes you happy inside... what's available locally, or good price... etc. I think the Yamaha would make most consumers happiest off all the reviews I read. It's plusher/comfy, Has a great engine and e start. It's not necessarily the "pro racers" choice where the stiffness of crf or ktm seem to do better
H4L
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10/5/2017 7:02am
MX shoot outs have many variables that come into play. It's up to the consumer what characteristics they're looking for in a bike. Case in point I've purchased 2 different bikes that placed last in the shoot outs an 03 CR250r & 10 CRF450r. With some tweaks they've become the top 3 favorite bikes owned in 4 decades. I think the modern 250 or 450 4 strokes are all very good with some minor tweaks to the riders preferences.
racerray909
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10/5/2017 7:31am
I had a friend ride my 17 a few times this weekend between mine and his 16 YZ450F he has two complains
1. No engine braking
2. Clutch feel was weird

Said he felt really comfortable on it the first time.
But in the end he a loyal Yamaha guy with a good dealership to work with. So I told him to stick with what he knows and he got the 18 YZ450f


kkawboy14
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10/5/2017 7:37am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2017 7:38am
It's obvious they are paying off the testers to much,,,,,they ran out of money for Seelys suspension......

Make is right
ML512
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10/5/2017 7:49am
gsxr6 wrote:
Here in a review 85mph for the identical gearbox, bigger rear sprocket than the mx model crf450rx is mentioned, and yes it can be overrevved past...
Here in a review 85mph for the identical gearbox, bigger rear sprocket than the mx model crf450rx is mentioned,
and yes it can be overrevved past 85mph. The tooth smaller rear sprocket of the mx model gives it an even higher top speed.
I just checked, our dyno wheel speed shows a higher 80mph range for most of these bikes, more than I expected. I don't sit on dirt straight aways or in parking lots holding bikes 5th gear wide.
ML512
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10/5/2017 7:50am
kkawboy14 wrote:
It's obvious they are paying off the testers to much,,,,,they ran out of money for Seelys suspension......

Make is right
Have you run out of sarcastic comments this week yet.
Kbach
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10/5/2017 9:15am
ML512 wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Honda only spends with one core-Motocross media outlet in the past few years and that's been Racer X. They've never spent...
As far as I'm aware, Honda only spends with one core-Motocross media outlet in the past few years and that's been Racer X. They've never spent a dime with Vital since we started....

We've been included in RFPs (request for proposals) but have never gotten an ad deal from any of those.

As for the Alta, it's designed to be a 250F competitor, not a 450. Having ridden an Alta, it would get dead last in a 450 Shootout, simple.
I take offense to that Michael....I clearly bought Steve and Bayo lunch a couple times back when I was doing the press gig for Honda so therefore I take full credit for laying the groundwork (obvious bribery) for the success of the 18 CRF450R in the Vital shootout... Smile

kkawboy14
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10/5/2017 9:17am
kkawboy14 wrote:
It's obvious they are paying off the testers to much,,,,,they ran out of money for Seelys suspension......

Make is right
ML512 wrote:
Have you run out of sarcastic comments this week yet.
I see you found one in the other thread Smile
gsxr6
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10/5/2017 9:26am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2017 9:29am
gsxr6 wrote:
Here in a review 85mph for the identical gearbox, bigger rear sprocket than the mx model crf450rx is mentioned, and yes it can be overrevved past...
Here in a review 85mph for the identical gearbox, bigger rear sprocket than the mx model crf450rx is mentioned,
and yes it can be overrevved past 85mph. The tooth smaller rear sprocket of the mx model gives it an even higher top speed.
ML512 wrote:
I just checked, our dyno wheel speed shows a higher 80mph range for most of these bikes, more than I expected. I don't sit on dirt...
I just checked, our dyno wheel speed shows a higher 80mph range for most of these bikes, more than I expected. I don't sit on dirt straight aways or in parking lots holding bikes 5th gear wide.
I do , but at coos Bay. A 450 will lift the tire on roll on past 75 in 5th . Tunnel vision like a 500 two stroke in the sign down portion of the power in 5th. Fun times. All the desert guys know I'm sure. On sand I find the very top part of 5th and approaching the rev limiter, the sand feels like regular dirt almost.
10/5/2017 10:20am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2017 10:21am
With a GPS speedometer, my 14 rmz450 did 87mph, and had more throttle but I got scared. I went out to the main highway for the speed run. It was scary.
mxb2
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10/5/2017 11:08am
Just the goons ridin mx bikes on the roadways.
ML512
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10/5/2017 11:14am
ML512 wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Honda only spends with one core-Motocross media outlet in the past few years and that's been Racer X. They've never spent...
As far as I'm aware, Honda only spends with one core-Motocross media outlet in the past few years and that's been Racer X. They've never spent a dime with Vital since we started....

We've been included in RFPs (request for proposals) but have never gotten an ad deal from any of those.

As for the Alta, it's designed to be a 250F competitor, not a 450. Having ridden an Alta, it would get dead last in a 450 Shootout, simple.
Kbach wrote:
I take offense to that Michael....I clearly bought Steve and Bayo lunch a couple times back when I was doing the press gig for Honda so...
I take offense to that Michael....I clearly bought Steve and Bayo lunch a couple times back when I was doing the press gig for Honda so therefore I take full credit for laying the groundwork (obvious bribery) for the success of the 18 CRF450R in the Vital shootout... Smile

Never bought me lunch...Sad

Are you around the office tomorrow btw? I'm swinging through.
datkin128
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10/5/2017 11:20am
yz133rider wrote:
Seems like a joke to me. Best shifting, best feel, best lightweight feeling, best cornering, get the hell out of here everyone is so Honda loyal...
Seems like a joke to me. Best shifting, best feel, best lightweight feeling, best cornering, get the hell out of here everyone is so Honda loyal it's nuts.
I've ridden the 18 Honda. It's a great bike, turns amazing, feels easy to ride, etc. You can't go wrong with that bike IMO.
kiwifan
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10/5/2017 1:02pm
MBR wrote:
Some people seemed a bit angry after Honda won the Vital shootout, but since then Honda won both Keefer's and Dirt Riders shootouts ;) For me...
Some people seemed a bit angry after Honda won the Vital shootout, but since then Honda won both Keefer's and Dirt Riders shootouts Wink For me the three new components: stiffer springs (too soft fork 2017), RX engine mounts (more forgiving frame) and new ecu maps (2017 hit a bit too hard from the bottom for average Joe) were things that needed work on Honda (and clutch). If you ride KTM/Husqvarna back to back you will notice surprisingly big difference between those bikes, but I'm not sure if it is enough to drop it to behind the rest of the bikes.
Gee aint that the truth....however we know the MXA one is yet to come...so the balance in the force is bound to be resumed Smile

As for the Husky, wow, even I am blown away they rated it last, I have ridden one and heck I think its a great bike...no way is it a dog (not that any of them are).
10/5/2017 1:07pm
MPJC wrote:
http://www.dirtrider.com/2018-450-mx-shootout Just posted today. What stood out to me is that the Husky finished last. I own KTMs and have never ridden a Husky. Are they...
http://www.dirtrider.com/2018-450-mx-shootout

Just posted today. What stood out to me is that the Husky finished last. I own KTMs and have never ridden a Husky. Are they really that different that they should finish so far apart in a shootout? I recall MXA stating that anyone who rates them vastly differently is nuts. Or is this just a testament to how close the bikes actually are, with all of them being very, very good?
Why are people " nuts" for having a different opinion of wich bikes they believe is the best? "loyal nuts" its in the end just opinions. Up to you to get what you want to ride anyway is it not?
Kbach
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10/5/2017 3:23pm
ML512 wrote:
Never bought me lunch...Sad

Are you around the office tomorrow btw? I'm swinging through.
Haha, you were never at the office when I went down there but I'm sure you stole snacks or something from the sprinter when we were at the track so that counts as lunch!!

I'll be here tomorrow. Shoot me a text/call when you get here and I'll run down to the shop and say hi.
(310)892-28foursix
brimx153
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10/5/2017 4:00pm
I had a friend ride my 17 a few times this weekend between mine and his 16 YZ450F he has two complains 1. No engine braking...
I had a friend ride my 17 a few times this weekend between mine and his 16 YZ450F he has two complains
1. No engine braking
2. Clutch feel was weird

Said he felt really comfortable on it the first time.
But in the end he a loyal Yamaha guy with a good dealership to work with. So I told him to stick with what he knows and he got the 18 YZ450f


i am thinking between a honda or yamaha , just wondering which has the most engine braking i rode a 17 honda and actually thought it had more engine braking than my 12 Suzuki 450. the Suzuki has a ton at first then nonthing at all when you are slowed down in the corner which i hate
wreckitrandy
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10/5/2017 4:08pm
Isn't Dirt Rider the outfit that named the Cannondale, Bike of the Year?
kiwifan
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10/5/2017 4:29pm
Isn't Dirt Rider the outfit that named the Cannondale, Bike of the Year?
so because they did that every shootout winner after that is wrong? Or just because a Honda won, it means its wrong?

wreckitrandy
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10/5/2017 6:14pm
Isn't Dirt Rider the outfit that named the Cannondale, Bike of the Year?
kiwifan wrote:
so because they did that every shootout winner after that is wrong? Or just because a Honda won, it means its wrong?

Well, since you put it 'THAT' way!!! Oh wait,,,,, didn't they do the same thing when Yamaha first came out with the backwards cylinder head?

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