Forum QNA: 2019 Vital MX 450 Shootout

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brycepdh
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brycepdh 8/22/2018 10:53pm
8/22/2018 10:53pm
Hi ML, you heavily stressed about the type of bars definitely affects handling and how comfortable you fell and whatnot. Could you give us more info on the two bar sizes and bends? What difference do they make etc.

I realise it’s different for everyone of various sizes and weight but I’m close to as many people would be I imagine, your insight would be appreciated.
Kx125rider 8/23/2018 6:44am
8/23/2018 6:44am
brycepdh wrote:
Hi ML, you heavily stressed about the type of bars definitely affects handling and how comfortable you fell and whatnot. Could you give us more info...
Hi ML, you heavily stressed about the type of bars definitely affects handling and how comfortable you fell and whatnot. Could you give us more info on the two bar sizes and bends? What difference do they make etc.

I realise it’s different for everyone of various sizes and weight but I’m close to as many people would be I imagine, your insight would be appreciated.
If you’re really interested
https://player.fm/series/rocky-mountain-atvmc-keefer-tested/show-70-han…
kb228
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kb228 8/23/2018 9:37am
8/23/2018 9:37am
Could kawasaki have taken the #1 spot if they included a wifi map tuner like yamaha does? It seems like that incredible technology is worth quite a bit. The thought of tuning a bike with an app is awesome.
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 8/23/2018 9:51am
8/23/2018 9:51am
Why is you racist against Suzuki?
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PRM31
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PRM31 8/23/2018 10:36am
8/23/2018 10:36am
PRM31 wrote:
How big of a deal is the Yamaha Tuner? It sounds fantastic, but if a bike the Kawi doesn't need a modified tune the value is...
How big of a deal is the Yamaha Tuner? It sounds fantastic, but if a bike the Kawi doesn't need a modified tune the value is marginal. Would the same thing be benefical to the Kawi, and if so, by how much?
ML512 wrote:
There’s maps I’ve tried on both the Honda and Kawasaki that I like better than what’s available in their stock buttons/couplers, but both of these involved...
There’s maps I’ve tried on both the Honda and Kawasaki that I like better than what’s available in their stock buttons/couplers, but both of these involved mapping tools that are as much as an aftermarket exhaust, where the Yamaha provides it for free.
Thanks, that answers it. That may be a game changer. When you can make changes on an iPhone app that approximate the change of a $1000 exhaust, you're on to something. And if you don't like it you can change it back, or change it based on the dirt or conditions on any given day.
ML512
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ML512 8/23/2018 11:20am
8/23/2018 11:20am
fpandjic wrote:
I'm also interested in the engine braking. Which one has the most and which one the least engine braking? Also remember that there was a mentiond...
I'm also interested in the engine braking. Which one has the most and which one the least engine braking?

Also remember that there was a mentiond of less engine braking map for yamah. Any chance we get that map?
I'll try to get that map. For now, here's the TP map which most of us thought is all-around better.


RF219
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RF219 8/23/2018 12:30pm
8/23/2018 12:30pm
any luck on dyno results?
swtwtwtw
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swtwtwtw 8/23/2018 3:08pm
8/23/2018 3:08pm
That to 2.0 map is drastically different than the tp11 map, and there are no changes to position, I see. Hmmmm
ML512
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ML512 8/23/2018 3:29pm
8/23/2018 3:29pm
swtwtwtw wrote:
That to 2.0 map is drastically different than the tp11 map, and there are no changes to position, I see. Hmmmm
It’s TP 2.0
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swtwtwtw
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swtwtwtw 8/23/2018 8:07pm
8/23/2018 8:07pm
swtwtwtw wrote:
That to 2.0 map is drastically different than the tp11 map, and there are no changes to position, I see. Hmmmm
ML512 wrote:
It’s TP 2.0
I know. LOL
I adjusted my tp11 pretty close to his new one at the upper positions and it helped me navigate the higher revs better. It will be fun to compare lap times next time out with all three maps.
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JackLHyde 8/23/2018 10:33pm
8/23/2018 10:33pm
Hey Michael,

one of the most popular bikes these days seems to be the 350, how would it fair against the 450s?
greencat
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greencat 8/24/2018 11:56am
8/24/2018 11:56am
I like shootouts, and I like that they use a varied level and age of riders, however, their are absoluteley NO objective measures in this shootout, just the subjective opinions of the testers, and therefore, the results are sadly not even remotely accurate or usable.

For example weight is a critical element in a dirt bike, the lighter the better, easier handling, easier to manouver in the air, easier to turn, to hold a line,, change a line..etc...and yet where is this measured? The KTM and Husky are almost 15lbs lighter than the YZ, and almost 10lbs lighter than the Kawasaki.

To do an accurate shootout, you need not just the opinons of testers, but actual factual performance data. Weight, horsepower, torque, horsepower ridability (dyno curves), technology (like electric start, hydralic clutches, etc (features), suspension characteristics, frame geometry and so on..

Also Lap times are absolutely critical! Where are they? Who cares what a test rider thinks about a bike if it is not backed up by objective measures (Lap times for example).

You need to first measure OBJECTIVE facts about each bike...THEN measure subject opinions, and subjective opinions need to be weightted LESS than the objective measures.
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swtwtwtw
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swtwtwtw 8/24/2018 7:24pm
8/24/2018 7:24pm
ML512 wrote:
I'll try to get that map. For now, here's the TP map which most of us thought is all-around better. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/08/22/282134/s1200_tp20map.jpg[/img]
I'll try to get that map. For now, here's the TP map which most of us thought is all-around better.


Holy crap that map is good. I tested it today vs tp11 vs my modified tp11. Same track, same line selection, and same number of laps. I took a 15 min break between sessions. Used tp 2.0 ver.3 last. 2018 yz450f.
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 8/25/2018 8:36am
8/25/2018 8:36am Edited Date/Time 8/25/2018 11:27am
greencat wrote:
I like shootouts, and I like that they use a varied level and age of riders, however, their are absoluteley NO objective measures in this shootout...
I like shootouts, and I like that they use a varied level and age of riders, however, their are absoluteley NO objective measures in this shootout, just the subjective opinions of the testers, and therefore, the results are sadly not even remotely accurate or usable.

For example weight is a critical element in a dirt bike, the lighter the better, easier handling, easier to manouver in the air, easier to turn, to hold a line,, change a line..etc...and yet where is this measured? The KTM and Husky are almost 15lbs lighter than the YZ, and almost 10lbs lighter than the Kawasaki.

To do an accurate shootout, you need not just the opinons of testers, but actual factual performance data. Weight, horsepower, torque, horsepower ridability (dyno curves), technology (like electric start, hydralic clutches, etc (features), suspension characteristics, frame geometry and so on..

Also Lap times are absolutely critical! Where are they? Who cares what a test rider thinks about a bike if it is not backed up by objective measures (Lap times for example).

You need to first measure OBJECTIVE facts about each bike...THEN measure subject opinions, and subjective opinions need to be weightted LESS than the objective measures.
How much time do you spend on the track with the throttle WFO? Dyno charts do not correlate to rideability.
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blaze 57
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blaze 57 8/25/2018 9:18am
8/25/2018 9:18am Edited Date/Time 8/25/2018 9:19am
Lindsey totally messes up the KTM handling/suspension going to only 103mm sag. That s not enough! They like 107mm or even 110mm but definitely above 105mm. Oh well maybe he like that funky kind of handling. Everyone is different.
darren7878 8/25/2018 12:18pm
8/25/2018 12:18pm
fpandjic wrote:
I'm also interested in the engine braking. Which one has the most and which one the least engine braking? Also remember that there was a mentiond...
I'm also interested in the engine braking. Which one has the most and which one the least engine braking?

Also remember that there was a mentiond of less engine braking map for yamah. Any chance we get that map?
I run the hard pack map on my 18 450 Yamaha and its has noticeably less engine braking than stock or TP maps.

Im a fan of this map and the phone app.
nascarnate326 8/25/2018 6:30pm
8/25/2018 6:30pm
Which bike has the best fit and finish or feels expensive.

Do they need pipes or are the stock exhaust systems pretty good?
ML512
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ML512 8/25/2018 7:54pm
8/25/2018 7:54pm Edited Date/Time 8/25/2018 7:56pm
blaze 57 wrote:
Lindsey totally messes up the KTM handling/suspension going to only 103mm sag. That s not enough! They like 107mm or even 110mm but definitely above 105mm...
Lindsey totally messes up the KTM handling/suspension going to only 103mm sag. That s not enough! They like 107mm or even 110mm but definitely above 105mm. Oh well maybe he like that funky kind of handling. Everyone is different.
I typically like higher sag numbers as you stated, I tried the bike at 107mm and it got worse for me this year. At 103mm, it helped settle the fork and put just the right amount of weight on it for me to be comfortable. There is no magic sag number that works for every rider. It’s also Lindsay, not Lindsey.

Here are the sag numbers I preferred for the balance I felt worked best “for me” on each bike.

102mm Yamaha
110mm Suzuki
103mm KTM
105mm Husqvarna
106mm Honda
107mm Kawasaki
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thorns
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thorns 8/26/2018 3:27am
8/26/2018 3:27am
Hi ML,

Got a suspension question. The Yamaha as per normal for the past 10+ years has the best out of the box suspension, curious though if you are getting it revalved/sprung etc to suit yourself, would the KX/CRF suspension be better once setup being that are based on A-kit? Or is the Yamaha stuff equal to that once tweaked for the individual as well?
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Lynch 8/26/2018 4:51am
8/26/2018 4:51am
ML512 wrote:
I'll try to get that map. For now, here's the TP map which most of us thought is all-around better. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/08/22/282134/s1200_tp20map.jpg[/img]
I'll try to get that map. For now, here's the TP map which most of us thought is all-around better.


swtwtwtw wrote:
Holy crap that map is good. I tested it today vs tp11 vs my modified tp11. Same track, same line selection, and same number of laps...
Holy crap that map is good. I tested it today vs tp11 vs my modified tp11. Same track, same line selection, and same number of laps. I took a 15 min break between sessions. Used tp 2.0 ver.3 last. 2018 yz450f.
Gonna try this out when I can, in what way did that map change the power output? Smile
greencat
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greencat 8/26/2018 4:33pm
8/26/2018 4:33pm
nytsmaC wrote:
How much time do you spend on the track with the throttle WFO? Dyno charts do not correlate to rideability.
I spend about 20% of my time at the local track WFO...But then I run a 350, not a 450.

The SHAPE of the dyno cuves of DO correlate to rideability. This is different than the overall horsepower.
swtwtwtw
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swtwtwtw 8/26/2018 5:02pm
8/26/2018 5:02pm
ML512 wrote:
I'll try to get that map. For now, here's the TP map which most of us thought is all-around better. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/08/22/282134/s1200_tp20map.jpg[/img]
I'll try to get that map. For now, here's the TP map which most of us thought is all-around better.


swtwtwtw wrote:
Holy crap that map is good. I tested it today vs tp11 vs my modified tp11. Same track, same line selection, and same number of laps...
Holy crap that map is good. I tested it today vs tp11 vs my modified tp11. Same track, same line selection, and same number of laps. I took a 15 min break between sessions. Used tp 2.0 ver.3 last. 2018 yz450f.
Lynch wrote:
Gonna try this out when I can, in what way did that map change the power output? Smile
Simply, where one might use gears 2-3-4, one can effectively use just 3rd. Plus a lot of the action happens below full throttle and is controlled.
PRM31
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PRM31 8/26/2018 6:16pm
8/26/2018 6:16pm
The specs show the Yamaha as having the tallest seat height. Does it actually feel taller? Shorter legged people care about this!
ML512
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ML512 8/26/2018 8:24pm
8/26/2018 8:24pm
PRM31 wrote:
The specs show the Yamaha as having the tallest seat height. Does it actually feel taller? Shorter legged people care about this!
It does a bit, this why myself and a few of the shorter guys ran the forks higher up in the clamps and opened the high speed compression to get the whole bike to settle more and be a bit lower in relation to the ground.
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Superdave19 8/26/2018 8:38pm
8/26/2018 8:38pm
ML- I've ridden 2 different 19' KX's... both had 2-3 motos on them.. After reading every sites reviews about the forks being a bit soft, I came away baffled as I felt the complete opposite- Over small stuff it was brutal-

Stk clicker settings. Could it be it just needs to be thoroughly broken in?
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honda65 8/26/2018 8:49pm
8/26/2018 8:49pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2018 8:51pm
Hey, great write up. Of course since I have a 19 Kawi, I'm crushed it didn't get picked 1st by everyone. Ah what do they know?

But seriously, 2 things...1st suspension....everyone keeps running these low sag numbers and it seems that the lighter the person, the great the sag. Is it possible that you are trying to overcome a spring rate that's too stiff? I think its great that you want to test them as stock as possible but to me installing the correct springs are not really a mod, just a proper setup. I know its also very time consuming to do that. But will you be doing any followup testing with the proper spring rates for a given rider/weight range?

2nd....I'm really surprised that the KX has only one air intake. I know that the KTM and Husky both have similar design and that drilling some holes livens them up a lot. Any thought of doing that on the Kawi.

Thanks
ML512
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ML512 8/26/2018 8:55pm
8/26/2018 8:55pm
honda65 wrote:
Hey, great write up. Of course since I have a 19 Kawi, I'm crushed it didn't get picked 1st by everyone. Ah what do they know...
Hey, great write up. Of course since I have a 19 Kawi, I'm crushed it didn't get picked 1st by everyone. Ah what do they know?

But seriously, 2 things...1st suspension....everyone keeps running these low sag numbers and it seems that the lighter the person, the great the sag. Is it possible that you are trying to overcome a spring rate that's too stiff? I think its great that you want to test them as stock as possible but to me installing the correct springs are not really a mod, just a proper setup. I know its also very time consuming to do that. But will you be doing any followup testing with the proper spring rates for a given rider/weight range?

2nd....I'm really surprised that the KX has only one air intake. I know that the KTM and Husky both have similar design and that drilling some holes livens them up a lot. Any thought of doing that on the Kawi.

Thanks
The KX has access to more air/easier than the stock KTM and Husky, the response was fine so we haven’t felt the need to modify the airflow yet.

Well, yes, the lighter riders are naturally dealing with spring rates that are higher than optimal for them. As you also mentioned, changing them out is EXTREMELY time consuming with how our testing days go. Bikes would be down for over 30 mins at a time to swap both ends properly, multiple times a day. Secondly, our test is definitely going to stick as “off-the-showroom-floor” Shootout.

Even with proper spring rates, I’d probably run all the same sag numbers/fork heights I did at this test. At least for me, all my numbers are about a chassis and front to rear weight balance I’m looking for to get each to perform in a range that best suits me.
ML512
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ML512 8/26/2018 8:58pm
8/26/2018 8:58pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2018 8:59pm
Superdave19 wrote:
ML- I've ridden 2 different 19' KX's... both had 2-3 motos on them.. After reading every sites reviews about the forks being a bit soft, I...
ML- I've ridden 2 different 19' KX's... both had 2-3 motos on them.. After reading every sites reviews about the forks being a bit soft, I came away baffled as I felt the complete opposite- Over small stuff it was brutal-

Stk clicker settings. Could it be it just needs to be thoroughly broken in?
What’s your weight, were the clickers stock on either and how far off was the sag?

So far, amongst my test group and the other media outlets, the forks are receiving massive praise on their initial plushness. Even from our lightest to heaviest riders, there wasn’t a single negative comment about the initial feel of the KX forks.

Also, if the triple clamp pinch bolts have been loosened and not torques properly (too tight) it can ruin the initial to mid stroke feel...
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Superdave19 8/26/2018 9:04pm
8/26/2018 9:04pm
ML512 wrote:
What’s your weight, were the clickers stock on either and how far off was the sag? So far, amongst my test group and the other media...
What’s your weight, were the clickers stock on either and how far off was the sag?

So far, amongst my test group and the other media outlets, the forks are receiving massive praise on their initial plushness. Even from our lightest to heaviest riders, there wasn’t a single negative comment about the initial feel of the KX forks.

Also, if the triple clamp pinch bolts have been loosened and not torques properly (too tight) it can ruin the initial to mid stroke feel...
Interesting - I'm 180lbs...Both owners said sag was 105. Stk clicker settings so they say..
Might just need to be broken in.

Sure felt light/nimble!
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Lynch 8/27/2018 3:41am
8/27/2018 3:41am
swtwtwtw wrote:
Holy crap that map is good. I tested it today vs tp11 vs my modified tp11. Same track, same line selection, and same number of laps...
Holy crap that map is good. I tested it today vs tp11 vs my modified tp11. Same track, same line selection, and same number of laps. I took a 15 min break between sessions. Used tp 2.0 ver.3 last. 2018 yz450f.
Lynch wrote:
Gonna try this out when I can, in what way did that map change the power output? Smile
swtwtwtw wrote:
Simply, where one might use gears 2-3-4, one can effectively use just 3rd. Plus a lot of the action happens below full throttle and is controlled.
Good info, what gearing are you using on your bike? Went up one tooth on mine (49).

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