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Edited Date/Time
6/28/2018 5:21pm
Taken from this week's Pit Bits
"After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review of products and procedures required to make sure that components from a variety of vendors aren't conflicting with each other. A few ten thousandths here and there can add up."
Makes me really consider how they are developing engine packages in-house. Any good engineer would analyze the GD&T and how stack-ups can impact the overall system before a single engine is ever assembled. This is 101 type stuff.
It sounds more like they spec components, throw it together, and then go test. Are the engine packages ever modeled and analyzed?
Seems like PC and some of the other 250 teams would operate under the same method.
I guess I just find it crazy that these teams expect so much of these motors and don't go through fundamental engineering practices that reveal many of these issues through modeling. Think of a program like JGR and their engineering staff....you just don't see those type of issues with them (or any of the Factory teams with OEM design support)
I would say this is a byproduct of guys that have just learned the engine craft through years of experience without any formal engineering training (not to discredit them, because these guys have forgotten more than most of us will ever dream to know about engine building)
"After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review of products and procedures required to make sure that components from a variety of vendors aren't conflicting with each other. A few ten thousandths here and there can add up."
Makes me really consider how they are developing engine packages in-house. Any good engineer would analyze the GD&T and how stack-ups can impact the overall system before a single engine is ever assembled. This is 101 type stuff.
It sounds more like they spec components, throw it together, and then go test. Are the engine packages ever modeled and analyzed?
Seems like PC and some of the other 250 teams would operate under the same method.
I guess I just find it crazy that these teams expect so much of these motors and don't go through fundamental engineering practices that reveal many of these issues through modeling. Think of a program like JGR and their engineering staff....you just don't see those type of issues with them (or any of the Factory teams with OEM design support)
I would say this is a byproduct of guys that have just learned the engine craft through years of experience without any formal engineering training (not to discredit them, because these guys have forgotten more than most of us will ever dream to know about engine building)
Paw Paw
https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/889824-shorteningcutting-front-for…
Seems they found a part they liked late in the week, tested it on one bike for less than two moto's time, and went racing with it.
You're absolutely right that these bikes are on the edge of grenading. . . But that tells me the team should give even more importance to testing new components before going racing with them.
The Shop
Also, just because OP was wrong on one topic doesn't mean everything he says is wrong or irrelevant.
sometimes you just get a run of bad luck with no specific area to analyize...
it would be interesting to know the most comm9n failures, but mx/sx is secret squirrel level reporting..
Teams don't have 3-4 years like an OEM does to develop an engine.
I was wrong on a thought I had 7 years ago.
What's your point?
Teams want the best/most horsepower they can get for the riders. Unfortunately the motors can be built to the level that they can have a short fuse and go boom to early. Sometimes using Lighter weight motor parts are not as strong. Time to detune just little to a level they still run great but stay together? Not the 1st time a team has had a reliable issue. A few 250 teams were going boom last year too.
I understand your point, but you are exemplifying why there should be a more methodical approach to their engine development.
You think you know engineering but don't.
You would be dangerous to the outside world if you were ever let out of whatever mental institution has the pleasure of your presence.
Pit Row
She confirmed they need a more methodical approach to their engine building.
Said its basically a bunch of vegemite eating MMI dropouts doing engine builds using ikea style instructions.
It is the first year on a new bike that was (according to the riders) really slow at the beginning of the year. Come the nationals, they are pushing the bikes to the very limits and are needing a few more HP. Yes they pushed the envelope a little too much.
IDK if he is or isnt, but i do know that I am one (I'm not a engineer tech either btw, I have a B.E in Mechanical Engineering) and I completely understand his point of view on this topic.
Modeling doesn't guarantee anything (nothing can), but it can point you in the right direction with little cost and/or risk. Trial and error is your last step, not your first. I do understand these teams are in a rush and maybe dont have time to model everything before hand and its a lot faster to bolt it on and try. I also have no idea what these teams truly go through on determining the best motor package, as I don't work for them, but it seems odd that a professional team at the highest level had 3 engines blow in two weeks and no one can explain why (or maybe they do know and just wont share, probably the case).
Here is a little quote that one of my professors loved to say "Anyone, given an endless supply of parts, could throw something together and let it blow up a thousand times before finally getting it right, but not just anyone can explain why that final piece worked and the other thousand times didnt."
There is quite a budget backing these teams, nothing like F1, but they could certainly afford to pick up a simulation/modeling person full time.
The OP does make some valid points, and this is coming from someone who works in powertrain and has a B.E in Mechanical Engineering.
Although my discipline is not Mechanical Engineering, I speak with knowledge in regards to the subject. I have a BS in Manufacturing/Industrial engineering as well as an ME in Engineering Management.
The reality is, whatever part that failed was likely pushed beyond its limit with the power theyre making in the motor.
Theres something called a safety factor when designing a part. If you design a pole to support 10lbs, you arent going to design the pole to support 10 lbs. you design it to hold 20lbs to make sure its durable and wont break by being pushed to its limit. Translate that thought into a connecting rod for example. Theyre going to design the part, according to simulation, as close to its limit as possible without risking immediate failure(remember it needs to last only a few hours). Lets say their safety factor is 1.1, theyre dangerously close to the breaking point. Under race conditions that safety factor may be reduced to 1.0 or .999 causing a failure. Something they couldnt replicate in CAD software. hope that makes sense.
There have been a lot of fast and reliable bikes throughout the years of that operation and every team has had their issues. I'm sure there isn't a lot of sleeping going on while they diagnose the problems and continue working to ensure they have some of the best equipment on the track for their racers.
I agree with what you are saying. I do not think they are modeling and simulating. This is my main point here.
The engine development is done in-house, we know that, but that is a partnership between HRC, Geico, and Wiseco. What we don't know is how much engineering support they receive from HRC on the motor package. Is Wiseco more responsible for the package than Geico or HRC? When does HRC get involved and take a look at what Wiseco/Geico is doing to cause the issues. At that point, you know it will start with a full on FEA that is combined with the real world testing data.
http://captiongenerator.com/530842/Mitch-Payton-after-Glen-Helen-
As opposed to all this engineering stuff perhaps it is just a case of "shit happens"
dkg,
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