Hierarchy of Two Stroke Hop Ups

YamahaJT1
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2/28/2018 6:13pm Edited Date/Time 2/28/2018 6:14pm
200+ pages of fantastically clean "Kick Ass Two Strokes"... Perhaps they all are not so "Kick Ass" . We have the "EARS" of experts here.
KooyaKooya
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2/28/2018 6:21pm
YamahaJT1 wrote:
200+ pages of fantastically clean "Kick Ass Two Strokes"... Perhaps they all are not so "Kick Ass" . We have the "EARS" of experts here.
Yeah, between frame stretch and case stretch, it seems like new bikes are the only way to go. So we're stuck with either KTM or Yamaha.
YamahaJT1
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2/28/2018 6:43pm Edited Date/Time 2/28/2018 6:57pm
YamahaJT1 wrote:
200+ pages of fantastically clean "Kick Ass Two Strokes"... Perhaps they all are not so "Kick Ass" . We have the "EARS" of experts here.
KooyaKooya wrote:
Yeah, between frame stretch and case stretch, it seems like new bikes are the only way to go. So we're stuck with either KTM or Yamaha.
Nah, not at all.

They'll be useful for years if well cared for and maintained CORRECTLY. I have a few 05'/07' CR125's that are cool. "Sticker Mechanics" are just who they are.

Can we agree that this thread is to be about what the OP intended? Thanks.

H4L
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2/28/2018 6:59pm
Glen wrote:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I seem to remember that when Honda came out with the '02 250 and the RC valve, I had never...
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I seem to remember that when Honda came out with the '02 250 and the RC valve, I had never seen anything like it. Then one day I was poking around ebay and saw a '96 CRM250 AR and it had what looked like the exact same power valve, right down to the RC cover. I poked around some more and even found an '89 CRM250 which also had an RC valve.

So I just thought it was weird that it was so highly touted when it came out in '02 when it looks like it's been around forever lol
Owned an 87 CR250r & remember hearing about an electronic PV on the HRC bikes that David Bailey & Rick Johnson rode. Don't know if Honda used the electronic powervalve on prior yr. CR models. I think it was in 86 or 87 ?

The Shop

newmann
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2/28/2018 7:17pm
I don’t know all about case stretch but when dealing with 44 year old Elsinores, good cases are hard to come by. One set out of four seems usable so I prep them up when I get a few good ones.



Rod kits are scarce so crank halves usually have to be bored to accept the later 79-84 CR and RM 125 rod kits with larger diameter crank pins and lower rod bearings. Hard to find anyone willing to do those.




NOS matched sets of cases are top priority.






And of course when all else fails just reach for a complete NOS off the shelf engine.Wink



I’ll admit, I may have a bit of a “problem”.Laughing
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H4L
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2/28/2018 7:30pm
Glen wrote:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I seem to remember that when Honda came out with the '02 250 and the RC valve, I had never...
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I seem to remember that when Honda came out with the '02 250 and the RC valve, I had never seen anything like it. Then one day I was poking around ebay and saw a '96 CRM250 AR and it had what looked like the exact same power valve, right down to the RC cover. I poked around some more and even found an '89 CRM250 which also had an RC valve.

So I just thought it was weird that it was so highly touted when it came out in '02 when it looks like it's been around forever lol
Just did a quick search & Honda had used an electronic controlled powervalve on the 85 HRC RC250.

https://transmoto.com.au/bike-ricky-johnsons-1986-honda-rc250/
newmann
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2/28/2018 7:40pm
85 RC250? Hannahs bike was sooooo trick















YamahaJT1
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2/28/2018 7:44pm Edited Date/Time 2/28/2018 7:58pm
Nice, Newmann...

I guess Young's Modulus applies throughout engine life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus. And... http://www.scienceclarified.com/everyday/Real-Life-Physics-Vol-2/Elasti…

Nuthin' lasts forever. We only hope for the best and stave it off as best possible.

But in the spirit of the OP, he's dealing with hopped up stuff...Top performance. I have dealt with "punky" cases... No "ting" when tapped. Just "thud". My 125cc Kart bro taught me that. But WTF did he know.
H4L
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2/28/2018 7:59pm
Newmann - That is some nice vintage iron you have...
PTshox
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2/28/2018 8:50pm
H4L wrote:
Newmann - That is some nice vintage iron you have...
Newmann - two words for you. Harry Klemm. Call him. )
BobPA
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2/28/2018 10:13pm
JMX82 wrote:
Grant Langston had a KTM 250SX with electronic power valve back in 2004

https://motocrossactionmag.com/two-stroke-tuesday-grant-lanstons-works-…
Polaris had electronic powervalves in 1996. Found on their 785 Pro watercraft. 785cc triple Fuji engine. Most converted to a gas operated valve for simplicity on the full race boats. Yamaha also had a version in the late 90’s on their GP800R twins, and GO1200R triples. Not exactly new tech.
BobbyM
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2/28/2018 10:35pm
This Derek guy doesn't know shit... Hehehe.



Fucking awesome stuff Derek
jeffro503
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2/28/2018 10:54pm
These are the type of threads I bookmark , come back and read quite s few more times. The info we get out of threads like this is priceless.
billyslad
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2/28/2018 11:13pm
Great thread with lots of knowledge
I heard that the aprilia gp team replaced exhausts every race so that they had no build up inside
Nova racing also make one off gearbox parts
The more you know the more you realise you don’t know !
Bosco
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3/1/2018 2:23am
B DUB 333 wrote:
Now THAT'S an answer. Thank you. Vital still has good stuff from time to time. Just gotta weed through the hurt feelings and seems like people...
Now THAT'S an answer. Thank you. Vital still has good stuff from time to time. Just gotta weed through the hurt feelings and seems like people are bitching and moaning too much threads.... since when do real men share they're emotions??? Sick
Sorry, off-topic I know, but this sort of sexism is something I can't stand. Male suicide rates are consistently higher around the world compared to female suicides. Where I'm from (Ireland) it's about 5 times higher. According to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention it's 3.5 times higher in the US (https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/).

I'll admit that a motorcycle forum is probably not the place for talking about feelings, but real men absolutely should "share their emotions", and to claim otherwise is dangerous.
Jrewing
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3/1/2018 3:00am Edited Date/Time 3/1/2018 3:00am
B DUB 333 wrote:
Now THAT'S an answer. Thank you. Vital still has good stuff from time to time. Just gotta weed through the hurt feelings and seems like people...
Now THAT'S an answer. Thank you. Vital still has good stuff from time to time. Just gotta weed through the hurt feelings and seems like people are bitching and moaning too much threads.... since when do real men share they're emotions??? Sick
Bosco wrote:
Sorry, off-topic I know, but this sort of sexism is something I can't stand. Male suicide rates are consistently higher around the world compared to female...
Sorry, off-topic I know, but this sort of sexism is something I can't stand. Male suicide rates are consistently higher around the world compared to female suicides. Where I'm from (Ireland) it's about 5 times higher. According to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention it's 3.5 times higher in the US (https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/).

I'll admit that a motorcycle forum is probably not the place for talking about feelings, but real men absolutely should "share their emotions", and to claim otherwise is dangerous.
Bosco.! So what youre saying is needle taper is key to clean jetting out of corners?
1
hellion
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3/1/2018 4:46am Edited Date/Time 3/1/2018 4:48am
Very interesting reading here. I had always been under the impression that the cylinder head is the first place to go when looking for power as the oem's do a poor job in getting squish correct, and they also have to run on the garbage that comes from the pumps these days.

I'd like to ask Derek what he thinks of the above, and specifically of technology like that found in the RK tek head? For those that haven't seen it, it has radial grooves that claim to increase power and fuel mileage.
3/1/2018 5:09am
So lower crankcase volume only work with the Right engine specs?
make1go
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3/1/2018 5:22am
newmann wrote:
I don’t know all about case stretch but when dealing with 44 year old Elsinores, good cases are hard to come by. One set out of...
I don’t know all about case stretch but when dealing with 44 year old Elsinores, good cases are hard to come by. One set out of four seems usable so I prep them up when I get a few good ones.



Rod kits are scarce so crank halves usually have to be bored to accept the later 79-84 CR and RM 125 rod kits with larger diameter crank pins and lower rod bearings. Hard to find anyone willing to do those.




NOS matched sets of cases are top priority.






And of course when all else fails just reach for a complete NOS off the shelf engine.Wink



I’ll admit, I may have a bit of a “problem”.Laughing
Love it, of course descibing your MO as just as a passion might be a fraction short of the mark. I always look forward to seeing what you,ve pulled out of a hat... As a former vintage mxer I can live vicariously thru you, so your "passion" is appreciated..Thanks..
TJMX947
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3/1/2018 5:48am
I knew that I didn't know a lot, but I'm glad to have a better idea about what I didn't know...if that makes sense.

Derek & the other techy guys knowledge gives me a new respect for the YZ125 and KTM 125/150. We look at two strokes as archaic technology but its fascinating to see that these things were developed to be the best all around package for most people.

Anybody have a nest egg or a KTM 125 they want to donate to the cause? Then we could all meet at a good track and take turns riding it. On second thought MXA would probably get their hands on it before us and hand it back in pieces, NVM.
vikingBoy
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3/1/2018 6:33am
billyslad wrote:
Great thread with lots of knowledge I heard that the aprilia gp team replaced exhausts every race so that they had no build up inside Nova...
Great thread with lots of knowledge
I heard that the aprilia gp team replaced exhausts every race so that they had no build up inside
Nova racing also make one off gearbox parts
The more you know the more you realise you don’t know !
Jan Thiel said that he hated how the team (Aprilia) would clean the inside of pipes all the time. He said that it would take a few dyno runs to lay some carbon on the inside of the pipe, and then the power would come back. I guess the carbon works as a nice radiant heat reflector, so it keeps the heat in the gasses instead of soaking it into the pipe material. The loss wasnt significant, maybe .5-1hp but, enough at that level.

Sadly all of Jan's work was to design an engine around a pipe configuration...which is really backwards. The RSW/RSA pipe were not that special apparently, but Jan had to make due cause the almighty head of the R&D team was the one who created the pipe. If it was reversed, who knows how much power the RSA would have made.

Frits Overmars said that 125 2 stroke GP development was achieving about 1hp a year...so the RSA stopped in 2007 with 55-56hp. That would mean that if they were still developing the GP125's they would most likely be around 65hp now.

And again, sadly when the 125 2 stroke program closed, Jan said that there were still things he wanted to try. He even had a new cylinder that was just casted, with the Exh Port floor level to the top of the transfers. When he got word of the closing down of the program, he went down the foundry and destroyed the castings... He never got a chance to try them.
JMX82
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3/1/2018 10:49pm
I hate when people that don't know their history are telling me that two strokes are archaic design when it's actually newer and more sophisticated design than overly complicated four stroke engine
vikingBoy
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3/2/2018 6:39am
I like to think about like this, the 4 stroke is a 2D engine. If you put in X, you most likely get X out. A 2 stroke is a vary 3D engine, when one thing is happening (intake stroke) multiple things are happening, and if you put X in, you better be prepared to fix or adjust Y and Z also, cause you know X is going to affect these as well.

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