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whammy whammy
7/1/2017 7:38 PM

Serious question. Post-aluminum frame Grass roots level MX probably peaked in the mid to late 2000's. Are we starting to see riders with less skill than years prior?


Seems like we're watching a bunch of guys race that defaulted into being top of the class(with the top of the field retiring). Even the wonder kids moving up in the 250's are not all that competitive outdoors(IE: AC, Forkner ) .The days of rookies coming out and cleaning the class seem like they are long gone(like RC and Stewart did).


I don't see anyone out there having anything for a prime RC or Stewart. Racing is racing... but this still kinda bothers me.

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Rockinar Rockinar
7/1/2017 7:47 PM

Back in the day the best talent won. Now its the team with the most money. It will only get worse.

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BobbyM BobbyM
7/1/2017 8:01 PM
whammy wrote:

Serious question. ...more

Sir Clueless we'll call you. MX participation peaked long before that Sir Clueless .late 70s early 80's

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whammy whammy
7/1/2017 8:15 PM
BobbyM wrote:

Sir Clueless we'll call ...more

I changed it to 'Post-aluminum frame Grass roots level'

So now you're tasked with finding some obscure aluminum frame MX bike from the 70's so you can continue shitposting(Brownie points if its also sporting a monoshock)

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kzizok kzizok
7/1/2017 8:21 PM

What former state of rudimentary motocross are you using as a comparison?

much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





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tcallahan707 tcallahan707
7/1/2017 8:31 PM

I'd argue that the talent pool is getting deeper. Standouts don't stand out nearly as much. I also would say that if the standard is RC and JS and the time frame is 2000's and on, then of course there is going to be regression. You can't expect to be pumping out "one of the greatest ever" every 3 or 4 years.

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langhammx langhammx
7/1/2017 8:32 PM

Trying to take you serious, but I don't know where to start.... blink

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TDeath21 TDeath21
7/1/2017 8:40 PM
tcallahan707 wrote:

I'd argue that the talent ...more

Although that's exactly what happened there for awhile. RC 96, JS 02, RV 05, RD 06. That is four of the best ever right there all within 10 years. You could even argue that's 4/5 of the best ever with MC obviously being the other one. Maybe that was the golden age for MX. We might look back and say that at some point. RD retiring marked that end of it.

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Flip109 Flip109
7/1/2017 8:48 PM

RC changed the training game and Js changed the riding game. Every kid on a 50-85 followed them. Now you have what we have now. Tons of talent with the riding style and training all going at it. It looks like less major talent but in reality you have tons of it. It's really close. Thats my take anyway.

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tcallahan707 tcallahan707
7/1/2017 8:49 PM
tcallahan707 wrote:

I'd argue that the talent ...more

TDeath21 wrote:

Although that's exactly ...more

I'll give you that. I'd also say it's too early to say KR isn't the current one. Or ET. And then maybe a 250 guy follows them up in a few more years. Now that doesn't pertain to the OP because we're not talking these guys as rookies (although ET did win his first race).

PS. Is not progressing as fast considered regressing?

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Manco Manco
7/1/2017 8:52 PM
BobbyM wrote:

Sir Clueless we'll call ...more

This is spot on for the most part. I would say stick to the late 60s early 70s. By the time the 80s hit the writing was on the wall. Corporations were taking over, races were moving indoors, F#$K the grass roots, its all about superheroes and big money. That is what the 80s brought, it solidified in the 90s and its been nothing but since. Oh sure there are pockets of grass roots that survived but nothing like the hey day of off road motorsports in the late 60s into the 70s.

The economic downfall of the working class since the late 60s made it worse. Part of what made racing great in the late 60's into the late 70s was the working class still made a wage worth working for. There was enough money in blue collar jobs for a larger majority of the population to get involved in racing. As jobs left America and wealth concentrated in the upper class since less economic opportunity for middle and lower classes pushes them out of motorsports.

To compound this Americans have lost there way in enjoying competition. Most Americans are scared sh#tless of competing and loosing. Everyone wants to be a superhero and if they can't they will just sit around on the sidelines stuffing their face and quaffing beverages watching the show. Its like they can't let go of their ego and have a good time seeing who can get around the track first. I know that this comes off as harsh but its true. Look at grass roots racing today. Its pathetic. Very few persons in the off road community are competing. Hell most won't even go out and ride a track. The fear in the average off road motorcyclists eyes when its mentioned they should come out for a day at the track is very real unless they have a background in MX or are an aspiring youth. This is why there are so many out there that treat the sport as a consumer hobby. They would rather buy a bike, spend money on a bunch of aftermarket mods and add on crap they don't need, then stand around bullshitting about who spent the most money on their bike and what they are gonna buy next. It really sad when you think about it.

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Monk Monk
7/1/2017 9:03 PM

I don't remember who said it (DV maybe?), but I think it's a case of settling... So many guys line up and are happy to get 5th or top 10...Adding to that, no needs to be 'hungry' anymore. A guy like Roczen in terms of skill is really not any better then the next guy, but he has that hunger/drive/desire to not only be the best, but accepts nothing less.. He doesn't want to line up if he isn't going to win, period!

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goonslurkin316 goonslurkin316
7/1/2017 9:42 PM
whammy wrote:

Serious question. ...more

I definitely see where you're coming from. My friends and I have had this discussion before, and we too feel as if something has changed, since that era of amateur motocross.
I think the results below speak for themselves, (my class being the 05 group); I've always said that the 03 class, was the deepest ever. (I think RacerX did a report a long time ago, detailing that with factual information).

There have been many guys, who have simply quit or have faded off, due to a variety of reasons, that could be in the prime of there careers (age wise) at this very moment, yet choose not to compete for one reason or the other; (which like you said allows for a default). I hate to see that, because a lot of casual fans didn't have the opportunity to view top-tier talent.

Obviously the young kids haven't had time to develop yet, it just seems as though like you said, there used to be such depth. (After Stewart, it was Millsaps' class, followed by Alessi-Villopoto, Dungey, and then to mine of Tomac)
All of the aforementioned were winning frequently as soon as they came into the class, and you don't see that as often anymore. Those riders have been persistent at remaining at the top of the field, and once they've moved on, the parity begins. You don't see many riders who are currently considered "younger", beating their predecessor on a consistent basis. (Anderson, Jeremy Martin were the year after me (06), but Martin was a late bloomer; Roczen is an outlier, as I think he's born in 94)

Visually, the talent of today's younger amateur classes looks fast (Much flashier IMO). So it appears the speed is there, but I just think it speaks volumes to how long those guys can stay at the top of the game.
And I can't speak for some of the older guys in the thread, as I never got to see the talent of the 80's, early 90's etc. (I know many are biased on their age divisions, and rightfully so)
I too agree that RC and Stewart to me seem like they're on a level of hierarchy that can hardly be touched.

http://llvault.racerxonline.com/2003/85-12-13-stock
(Osborne 3rd, Dungey 9th, Hahn 12th, Canard 16th, Darryn Durham 20th, Vince Friese 37th)

http://llvault.racerxonline.com/2005/85-12-13-stock
(Barcia 1st, Tomac 7th, Baggett 10th, Wilson 12th, M. Stewart 18th)

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TDeath21 TDeath21
7/1/2017 9:46 PM
tcallahan707 wrote:

I'd argue that the talent ...more

TDeath21 wrote:

Although that's exactly ...more

tcallahan707 wrote:

I'll give you that. I'd ...more

Yeah that's true we won't know for awhile. I think Roczen was on his way to maybe being that guy but it's obviously up in the air now. In my opinion, Tomac is just off of that level. I'd compare him to a Tortelli or Windham, but with no RC to keep taking wins from him at the moment like Roczen did last year.

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1st Amendment 1st Amendment
7/2/2017 12:41 AM
Rockinar wrote:

Back in the day the best ...more

That's because the teams with the most money bought the best guys

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mmcmx mmcmx
7/2/2017 12:51 AM

I'd put KR and ET on that list. But the OP is right, it has been a while since they were rookies.

Take a look at the top of the 250 class, that's an old man class now. Everyone has been giving shit to Davalos for years but the Martin Brothers and Zach are almost 30.

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DrinkMoreWater DrinkMoreWater
7/2/2017 3:27 AM

I watch many sports and the last great sportsmen(for now) were mainly born between 83-87, in most of the sports I watch not many sportsmen younger than that year group have matched or surpassed them.

This is from.

Soccer
Australian Football
Rugby
Tennis
Motocross.

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philG philG
7/2/2017 3:45 AM

I disagree.. While the standard may rise based on laptimes , or speed in athletics etc, due to better equipment, and training, the talent pool depth is always based on the number of participants, not how good they are .

World Rally Champion Sebastian Loeb was once asked 'what is it like to be the best rally driver in the world' to which he replied, ' i am just the best driver here , the best driver in the world might be driving a milk truck in Marseilles' .. it puts it in perspective .

There are less riders now than there were 5 years ago , and 5 years before that , etc , which leads me back to the 80's when the sport in the US was at its peak, and factory teams were 4 rider affairs, and any of them could and did win. because there were so many riders supporting it from the bottom up.

Now you have a guy like Henry Miller jumping on a 450 at RedBud running easily in the top 10 in moto 1 , and bagging 15th overall, and Wey coming off the couch and doing the same and bagging a point.

This tells me that the talent pool in 450 is ankle deep at best , based on lap times, and rider spread, you have 4 guys who can win , 10 who will fill the next 10 places, and then 25 also rans who are paying their own way , and another 40 guys slower than them.. being 30 secs a lap off in a 2.00 lap isnt a talent pool , its grid filling.

EMX over here has guys like Weltin and Charbonneau not making the cut and going to the LCQ , in qualifying, and still having race winning speed,

And dont forget , Dungey and Roczen would be gone off the front of these boys.

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ChrisB10 ChrisB10
7/2/2017 3:57 AM

What a dumb question honestly. These guys are going faster than ever b4. 250s have 51hp now. Do you know how skilled you have to be to ride these tracks at the speed these riders do???!!! How can you watch Martin Osborn Ando Tomac and BB literally pin the entire track and make it look easy and complain about talent?

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philG philG
7/2/2017 4:08 AM
ChrisB10 wrote:

What a dumb question ...more

You think Hannah and Bradshaw couldnt do that ... the tracks are like fucking Freeways now, compared to then. Half the reason the last 2 weekends have been a procession is that everyone is the same speed because the tracks are flat out everywhere. 250 class proves that , good start, run at the front , bad start, stuck in mid pack .. Hill and Renzland prime examples.

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JustMX JustMX
7/2/2017 4:17 AM

I liked it better when top riders were limited by brakes, suspension, and power but pushed beyond what the bike should have been capable of.

I don't really care if the field is 40 riders deep. I want racing up front.

The mid to late 80's were pretty good with ward, johnson, lechien, bailey, glover, barnett, omara, stanton, all having a shot.

Then mc and his domination of sx, and rc 24-0 x 2 along with js. Yawn.

Now you don't really know who is going to win in either class on any given day.

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jonesaustin jonesaustin
7/2/2017 6:52 AM
philG wrote:

You think Hannah and ...more

yeah I tend to agree. it's just a different sport now, but evolution cost a lot of the cooll factor somehow. the increased speeds, guided by talent no question, are also a result of cadillac bikes that cruise so fast the tracks have had to accommodate them. so racing isn't as tight as it once was.

the same thing happened to aerial combat, where WWII dogfights were unbelievable compared with modern jet fighters.

fourstrokes are here to stay I guess, but we shot ourselves in the foot with where technology has evolved (while the more interesting design evolution of the bikes has slowed to molasses).

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cbuehler767 cbuehler767
7/2/2017 7:35 AM

I think the depth now here and especially the GP's is higher than ever. That said prime RC or JS would have raped the field yesterday

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Mx286 Mx286
7/2/2017 7:47 AM

This ^^^. There is so many people on this board that don't have a clue unless you grew up racing with all these top guys. I've mentioned it before, but before the economy took a shit in 08 there was talent out the ass in the pro and amateur level. After that so many guys with a ton of potential simply dropped off the grid.

I could name off 15-20 guys off the top of my head that either stopped racing or simply just quit due to financial reasons that had a ton of talent and would be racing pro today.

Today it's all about how much money you got and how much it cost to buy the ride. Kids with rich parents simply don't work as hard as the riders that came from the blue collar families like say Villopoto or Dungey.

In the pros privateers were simply happy to make the fast 40, now you've got privateers getting close to the top 10. I'm not taking anything away from these guys because they are rolling, but now you've got guys going to Canada or racing somewhere else or simply setting out.

The majority of the factory riders today are the older age group. It will be interesting to see how it goes once they retire. Don't get me wrong there's talent behind them, but not as much.

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early early
7/2/2017 7:49 AM

Super dominant riders are cool from a historical aspect but this year has been one of the most fun seasons fun to watch. Also when judged against the rest of the top riders in the world top AMA guys are up there at the front so unless everyone in the world is slow i think the level is pretty freaking high.

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philG philG
7/2/2017 9:32 AM
cbuehler767 wrote:

I think the depth now here ...more

Depth in the US is at an all time low, IMO, Villopoto quit in his prime, Dungey did the same, Roczen is in his prime sitting on the sidelines, and then a rake of riders are on SX only contracts or up in Canada making money..

250 class is full of guys that would be out of a ride if they ran the MXGP rules of under 23, which is why the 450 class is a shadow of its former self, no Alessi, no Reed , no Brayton, no Millsaps, Mookie sitting home bleating nobody will pay him to ride.

Every national series in the world is a shadow of what it was back in 2010, or 2000, or 1990.. if you dont know enough to know that then you are either 22 , or simply werent paying attention


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NorCal 50+ NorCal 50+
7/2/2017 10:15 AM

Maybe when Supercross became televised, it changed things. Is there an average person in the world who would watch Anaheim 1 and say "Yeah, I wanna do that?" Maybe it became more of a freakshow...
On the local level, it is easy to see that disappearance of riding areas and the crazy cost of bikes has led to this. Who is going to invest $12,000 in bike and gear to check the sport out? More likely they will spend a couple thousand more and get a streetbike they can ride from their front door.
I sold bikes for five years and every day I heard "I would love to get a dirt bike but there is nowhere to ride."

It's impossible for a corporation or government to love you or care about you.

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mxb2 mxb2
7/2/2017 10:22 AM
NorCal 50+ wrote:

Maybe when Supercross ...more

Plenty of places to ride,. Just an excuse. Depends how bad you want to ride.

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Alucard Alucard
7/2/2017 10:41 AM
Flip109 wrote:

RC changed the training ...more

Absolutely agree and on point... Professionalism is peaking, talent alone doesn't cut it anymore, today the competition is so tight that if you miss a little step you're doomed... We're probably not going to see rookies dominating anymore, riders are extending their primes and peaks, and everyone is a pro, from bike, training, diet, psychologist, overall team and such...

Competition only gets better, not the contrary, in every sport... Plus let's be fair, RC is arguably the GOAT, and JS one of the most incredible and innovative riders ever, having both as a meter of comparison is tough for anyone...

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Matt Wozney Matt Wozney
7/2/2017 10:54 AM

I'd say it's more level but also more saturated than ever. RC dominated because he turned EVERYONE's lifestyles from "Hey let's party it up!" to "How many miles did I put on the road bike this week?" JS7 changed the way we all ride now. With the combination of that and the ease of riding / racing 4 strokes these days (as well as some being smarter and safer on how they approach the races - risk / reward), it's leveled off for now. Crap economy in 2008 may have played a part and lifestyles change over time. Less racers at local level these days. Social media's influence (everyone sees everything now) and the cost cutting world we live in now (ditching cable, apps, Uber, etc.) are other factors. Times a changin'.

From dirt bikes to dirty strikes! Bowl on PBA tour @wozbowls. Oh...and I'm MXPTV.

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