Seely's suspension, is it an air shock?

10/4/2017 2:02pm
Jonny Dep. Please acknowledge sir. Did happen on KYB. DIDN'T happen on SHOWA. As stated MANY times.
BobPA
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10/4/2017 2:07pm
But that's pretty normal for you Tongue
I've certainly never been considered the brightest bulb on the tree Whistling
ML512
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10/4/2017 2:20pm
Jonny Dep. Please acknowledge sir. Did happen on KYB. DIDN'T happen on SHOWA. As stated MANY times.
He doesn't read other posts...including how many times I've explained how the top shock mount changed by over 40mms but the actual clevis/bottom point is only 2-3mms different.
kiwifan
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10/4/2017 4:35pm
ELECTRICAL MALFUNCTIONS?

Was Cole running eletromagnetic suspension? Blink
ML512 wrote:
That's a fake PR before anyone believes the ridiculousness...
BobPA wrote:
I would hope no one believes it. I reference kiwifan for crying out loud.
yeah thanks...

The Shop

kiwifan
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10/4/2017 4:49pm
kiwifan wrote:
So what have we learned in this thread? 1. Most here are the best suspension experts around and refuse to believe ML512 who has had more...
So what have we learned in this thread?

1. Most here are the best suspension experts around and refuse to believe ML512 who has had more experience in suspension than everyone combined that log onto Vital...and then some
2. Vitards think that if a factory shock has a failure then a) the linkage is the problem (design flaw apparently) and/or b) production bikes are now crap (despite it not happening anytime elsewhere, and prod bikes not using factory KYB shocks)

This place is such an education. Smile
kkawboy14 wrote:
1) ML512 is a forum moderator, he doesn't know anything about suspension failures....... 2) We Vitards are having a hard time believing that the Honda Team.....the...
1) ML512 is a forum moderator, he doesn't know anything about suspension failures.......

2) We Vitards are having a hard time believing that the Honda Team.....the all powerful most professional money is no object distracted by a failing F1 engine package been designing suspension for 40 years made it thru the whole AMA SX and American Outdoor Series for 35 years without failure......could be so stupid as to design something that could fail that easy!

Please do forgive us for having some confidence in them, from now on, Factory Suspension guys at Honda, are idiots!


kkawboy14
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10/4/2017 5:22pm
RangerLee wrote:
Wait it is electrical now? How does an electrical issue cause his back end of the bike to stay all the way down?
Heavy mud!
kkawboy14
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10/4/2017 5:22pm
kiwifan wrote:
So what have we learned in this thread? 1. Most here are the best suspension experts around and refuse to believe ML512 who has had more...
So what have we learned in this thread?

1. Most here are the best suspension experts around and refuse to believe ML512 who has had more experience in suspension than everyone combined that log onto Vital...and then some
2. Vitards think that if a factory shock has a failure then a) the linkage is the problem (design flaw apparently) and/or b) production bikes are now crap (despite it not happening anytime elsewhere, and prod bikes not using factory KYB shocks)

This place is such an education. Smile
kkawboy14 wrote:
1) ML512 is a forum moderator, he doesn't know anything about suspension failures....... 2) We Vitards are having a hard time believing that the Honda Team.....the...
1) ML512 is a forum moderator, he doesn't know anything about suspension failures.......

2) We Vitards are having a hard time believing that the Honda Team.....the all powerful most professional money is no object distracted by a failing F1 engine package been designing suspension for 40 years made it thru the whole AMA SX and American Outdoor Series for 35 years without failure......could be so stupid as to design something that could fail that easy!

Please do forgive us for having some confidence in them, from now on, Factory Suspension guys at Honda, are idiots!
kiwifan wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/10/04/218297/s1200_triplefacepalm.jpg[/img]


It's true you know?
Johnny Depp
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10/4/2017 8:40pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2017 8:47pm
Jonny Dep. Please acknowledge sir. Did happen on KYB. DIDN'T happen on SHOWA. As stated MANY times.
ML512 wrote:
He doesn't read other posts...including how many times I've explained how the top shock mount changed by over 40mms but the actual clevis/bottom point is only...
He doesn't read other posts...including how many times I've explained how the top shock mount changed by over 40mms but the actual clevis/bottom point is only 2-3mms different.
Underground I did already on this thread page 3 and 5 (I know it's hard to keep up around here but it was also copied in the above post)

"ML512 mentioned briefly that the Honda shock rides low in the frame. I suspect this is the reason that a KYB that has a great history has had a sudden failure point exposed."

"Could the bottom shock mount being in a different enough location to cause the failure in the mud on the Honda of KYB equipment that has never had this failure in other applications? Twice. Likely mud packing forcing the retaining ring open."

Michael, I think the bottom point is more than 2-3 mms from the above photos of the different years. That is not the point, whether it is 3 or 300, nor is the FACT that the KYB broke (the caps are for Underground Grinning ) The point is mentioned very nicely in Pit Bits by yourself, the shock mounting location.

"the fact that the retaining system KYB uses is common on their shocks and was present on a slew of machines and different brands that didn't experience these problems. In the end, it was a combination of the retaining system and Honda shock layout that made for the perfect storm in these muddy conditions to fail both motos."

So I think we agree. If you consider this an isolated incident that is now solved, then case closed. Honda would certainly like it to be over. If there is a chance that the other issues previously mentioned, crashes and frame breakage may be related, I think the case is still open.
"Secondly Mr. Tin Foil hat, explain, please explain in detail how any of this has to do with Roczen or Gajser's crashes? "

I will slightly correct my opinion, in that these crashes are happening when the bike cases out and the suspension is at full extension on initial contact, not fully collapsed.
I think I gave a fairly detailed opinion, what's your's?

Squitlege
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10/4/2017 8:49pm
Underground I did already on this thread page 3 and 5 (I know it's hard to keep up around here but it was also copied in...
Underground I did already on this thread page 3 and 5 (I know it's hard to keep up around here but it was also copied in the above post)

"ML512 mentioned briefly that the Honda shock rides low in the frame. I suspect this is the reason that a KYB that has a great history has had a sudden failure point exposed."

"Could the bottom shock mount being in a different enough location to cause the failure in the mud on the Honda of KYB equipment that has never had this failure in other applications? Twice. Likely mud packing forcing the retaining ring open."

Michael, I think the bottom point is more than 2-3 mms from the above photos of the different years. That is not the point, whether it is 3 or 300, nor is the FACT that the KYB broke (the caps are for Underground Grinning ) The point is mentioned very nicely in Pit Bits by yourself, the shock mounting location.

"the fact that the retaining system KYB uses is common on their shocks and was present on a slew of machines and different brands that didn't experience these problems. In the end, it was a combination of the retaining system and Honda shock layout that made for the perfect storm in these muddy conditions to fail both motos."

So I think we agree. If you consider this an isolated incident that is now solved, then case closed. Honda would certainly like it to be over. If there is a chance that the other issues previously mentioned, crashes and frame breakage may be related, I think the case is still open.
"Secondly Mr. Tin Foil hat, explain, please explain in detail how any of this has to do with Roczen or Gajser's crashes? "

I will slightly correct my opinion, in that these crashes are happening when the bike cases out and the suspension is at full extension on initial contact, not fully collapsed.
I think I gave a fairly detailed opinion, what's your's?

Give it a rest for faks sake

ML512
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10/4/2017 8:50pm
Jonny Dep. Please acknowledge sir. Did happen on KYB. DIDN'T happen on SHOWA. As stated MANY times.
ML512 wrote:
He doesn't read other posts...including how many times I've explained how the top shock mount changed by over 40mms but the actual clevis/bottom point is only...
He doesn't read other posts...including how many times I've explained how the top shock mount changed by over 40mms but the actual clevis/bottom point is only 2-3mms different.
Underground I did already on this thread page 3 and 5 (I know it's hard to keep up around here but it was also copied in...
Underground I did already on this thread page 3 and 5 (I know it's hard to keep up around here but it was also copied in the above post)

"ML512 mentioned briefly that the Honda shock rides low in the frame. I suspect this is the reason that a KYB that has a great history has had a sudden failure point exposed."

"Could the bottom shock mount being in a different enough location to cause the failure in the mud on the Honda of KYB equipment that has never had this failure in other applications? Twice. Likely mud packing forcing the retaining ring open."

Michael, I think the bottom point is more than 2-3 mms from the above photos of the different years. That is not the point, whether it is 3 or 300, nor is the FACT that the KYB broke (the caps are for Underground Grinning ) The point is mentioned very nicely in Pit Bits by yourself, the shock mounting location.

"the fact that the retaining system KYB uses is common on their shocks and was present on a slew of machines and different brands that didn't experience these problems. In the end, it was a combination of the retaining system and Honda shock layout that made for the perfect storm in these muddy conditions to fail both motos."

So I think we agree. If you consider this an isolated incident that is now solved, then case closed. Honda would certainly like it to be over. If there is a chance that the other issues previously mentioned, crashes and frame breakage may be related, I think the case is still open.
"Secondly Mr. Tin Foil hat, explain, please explain in detail how any of this has to do with Roczen or Gajser's crashes? "

I will slightly correct my opinion, in that these crashes are happening when the bike cases out and the suspension is at full extension on initial contact, not fully collapsed.
I think I gave a fairly detailed opinion, what's your's?

Ken's crash has nothing to do with the linkage or shock hanging up in anyway. I went through a full breakdown of his crash at Vegas and earlier this season, it ha more to do with soft settings, load, and miss-timing.

As for my comment in Pit Bits about shock labor, I am NOT referring to the height of the overall shock but the height of the bumper cup/retaining ring. Which is quite low due to the short clevis, not the ending point of said clevis. As mentioned by many others in here, Showa doesn't have the same problem. It's not how low the actual shock is, but the location of the retaining system and how it gather mud. The showa retaining system actually sits even lower than the KYB one but is better protected.
10/4/2017 9:37pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2017 9:44pm
GrapeApe wrote:
Did they recover either of the broken collars from the track?
That's a really "deep" collar. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if part ended up packed in the mud inside the spring. as the spring hammered down through.

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