The Bike that Killed the 2 Stroke!

jjavaman
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jjavaman 8/6/2020 12:57pm
8/6/2020 12:57pm
GangGreen wrote:
[b]Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps...
Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps in place in professional racing that ridiculous "Double-Displacement" rule, inadvertently killing the BEST PLATFORM ever designed, the 250cc Two Stroke.




Photo Credit: Simon Cudby / RacerX
BroFoSho wrote:
250 four-strokes are still better than 250 two-strokes...

Case in point... Canadian Nationals
Fully worked 4t that cost how much vs stock 250t
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dang472
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dang472 8/6/2020 1:01pm
8/6/2020 1:01pm
I remember watching Pastrana at Red Bud in 2001 wringing the life out of that factory RM125 around the outside of every corner. Meanwhile I think it was Kelly Smith on a YZ250f giving him fits and clearly not working as hard. I think everyone starting seeing the writing on the wall for the 125 class.
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zehn
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zehn 8/6/2020 1:13pm
8/6/2020 1:13pm
dang472 wrote:
I remember watching Pastrana at Red Bud in 2001 wringing the life out of that factory RM125 around the outside of every corner. Meanwhile I think...
I remember watching Pastrana at Red Bud in 2001 wringing the life out of that factory RM125 around the outside of every corner. Meanwhile I think it was Kelly Smith on a YZ250f giving him fits and clearly not working as hard. I think everyone starting seeing the writing on the wall for the 125 class.
Funny because I remember a green 125 absolutely destroying the 250Fs in the next several years
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Motocross83 8/6/2020 1:19pm
8/6/2020 1:19pm
Visually, from a technical aspect, I think MX was much more interesting to watch when the Pros were on 2 strokes, SX especially. Of course we still get incredible racing and of course we still see clear remarkable technical displays (Jeffrey round Lommel etc) - but it was more, sort of, raw on the 2 strokes. Someone finding the drive to clear a certain jump whereas another couldn't etc. Supercross in the 450s feels (I'm not saying it is as clearly a rider like ET is doing stuff to be better than the competition) but it feels more subtle now. Where's with the 2 strokes it was blatant.... Visually you couldn't miss a rider doing something better. It also felt cheaper and more relatable to the ordinary rider.
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stone881
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stone881 8/6/2020 2:20pm
8/6/2020 2:20pm
I had one and loved it except for the starting procedure. You had to make sure to get them to TDC and then give her the full kick.
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jerry atrick moto 8/6/2020 2:44pm
8/6/2020 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2020 2:44pm
I have a 98 YZ400F in a room with 3 other 250 2ts. They all seem to get along 🤔
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Dirty Points 8/6/2020 4:10pm
8/6/2020 4:10pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2020 4:13pm
Paw Paw wrote:
The 2001 Yamaha YZ250 f is the bike that turned us from 2 strokes to 4 strokes. Then the 2003 Honda CRF450r put the last nail...
The 2001 Yamaha YZ250 f is the bike that turned us from 2 strokes to 4 strokes. Then the 2003 Honda CRF450r put the last nail in the coffin.

Paw Paw
There was never a 4-stroke bike of any make or displacement that killed the 2-stroke. OEMs and racing sanctioning bodies killed the 2-stroke.
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JoeWV
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JoeWV 8/6/2020 6:24pm
8/6/2020 6:24pm
stone881 wrote:
I had one and loved it except for the starting procedure. You had to make sure to get them to TDC and then give her the...
I had one and loved it except for the starting procedure. You had to make sure to get them to TDC and then give her the full kick.
Haha,,,I had an ‘01 426 that had the same crazy TDC start procedure. I used to have fun with guys that never saw the new 4 stroke and would ask to ride it, I would tell them if they could start it they could have it. Never had to give it away. I was 22 at the time and just barely had enough ass to kick the thing over while it was leaning against a tree,,,ha! I just came off a yz125 and thought I was king of hill though, that 426 had some giddy up.
FahQ
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FahQ 8/6/2020 6:42pm
8/6/2020 6:42pm
The fuel rules were the nail in the coffin
brocster
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brocster 8/6/2020 7:54pm
8/6/2020 7:54pm
Paw Paw wrote:
The 2001 Yamaha YZ250 f is the bike that turned us from 2 strokes to 4 strokes. Then the 2003 Honda CRF450r put the last nail...
The 2001 Yamaha YZ250 f is the bike that turned us from 2 strokes to 4 strokes. Then the 2003 Honda CRF450r put the last nail in the coffin.

Paw Paw
Had a 01 CR250 2T and traded it in on a 01 YZ250F. Great friggin bike, kept it a few years a rode and 03 CRF 450 then traded the 01 YZ250F for an 04 CRF450 the day the first one hit the floor. 04 CRF 450 was one of the best bikes I ever owned.
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loftyair
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loftyair 8/6/2020 8:23pm
8/6/2020 8:23pm
If tech had kept going for 2-strokes, and they were allowed any cc, no 4-stroke would ever come close. Now that some 2-strokes are getting more cc, and tech is catching up, they are becoming more popular. It is really a better motor. Just needs that little bit to make it best available.
GeorgiePorgie 8/6/2020 9:26pm
8/6/2020 9:26pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2020 9:28pm
The 426 was a vibrating turd, that would be sitting on the side of the track after a tip-over. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Nothin'...... everyone watchin that at local amatuer racing wasn't sprinting out to trade in their one-kick 2 strokes for that!!
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Alex.434
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Alex.434 8/6/2020 9:54pm
8/6/2020 9:54pm
Whatever. When I had enough of the 4-stroke experiment back in 2012 and bought a 2013 KTM250SX it was pretty rare to see another 2-stroke at the track. Maybe you'd see one or two more.

Now in 2020 (I'm on a 2017 TC250) everytime I go to the track I see a fuckton of 2-strokes out there ripping. Huge change.

This is in Southern California btw.

I'm still laughing at DC's shitty excuse for not allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 outdoor class. Weaksauce.
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Dropbear
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Dropbear 8/7/2020 2:06am
8/7/2020 2:06am
I reckon it started here with a special mention to CCM. The realisation that a 4 stroke can still compete at the top level.
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WCRider
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WCRider 8/7/2020 2:12am
8/7/2020 2:12am
That 2 strokes myth is ridiculous. 4 strokes is way better.
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Ray_MXS
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Ray_MXS 8/7/2020 3:22am
8/7/2020 3:22am
Honestly, I dont get why they had to include the 4 strokes in the 250 class to begin with.

I like to think back to, in my opinion, the golden era of GP motocross. Late 90s-early 2000s.
There were three very distinct classes. 125, 250 and 500. 125 and 250 were two stroke and 500 was the "run-whatever-you-like" class.

No class was seen as inferior to the other. People switched up and down all the time. It was more like, if you´re a big bulky strong guy, you probably race 500, but if you´re a small, short, techincal guy, you probably race 125s.

Every class had a distinct feel and difference to them and they were all very enjoyable.

They ruined it by including 4 strokes and raising the cap to 450. Now all of a sudden the manufacturers became interested.

Equal displacement - run what ever stroke you like. How hard can it be.

Its not BAD now, I just thought it was much better back then.
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DoctorJD
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DoctorJD 8/7/2020 5:40am
8/7/2020 5:40am
dang472 wrote:
I remember watching Pastrana at Red Bud in 2001 wringing the life out of that factory RM125 around the outside of every corner. Meanwhile I think...
I remember watching Pastrana at Red Bud in 2001 wringing the life out of that factory RM125 around the outside of every corner. Meanwhile I think it was Kelly Smith on a YZ250f giving him fits and clearly not working as hard. I think everyone starting seeing the writing on the wall for the 125 class.
zehn wrote:
Funny because I remember a green 125 absolutely destroying the 250Fs in the next several years
Yea, but there was a freak of nature riding the thing. Doesn't count.
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Hasletjoe
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Hasletjoe 8/7/2020 6:18am
8/7/2020 6:18am
These are the folks responsible for the change:


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alphado
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alphado 8/7/2020 6:54am
8/7/2020 6:54am
Don't forget the noise debate too when the 4-strokes came out. I remember adding inserts in the end of the silencer to meet DB levels at the track. One local track tested you before you went out.
ns503
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ns503 8/7/2020 8:36am
8/7/2020 8:36am
dang472 wrote:
I remember watching Pastrana at Red Bud in 2001 wringing the life out of that factory RM125 around the outside of every corner. Meanwhile I think...
I remember watching Pastrana at Red Bud in 2001 wringing the life out of that factory RM125 around the outside of every corner. Meanwhile I think it was Kelly Smith on a YZ250f giving him fits and clearly not working as hard. I think everyone starting seeing the writing on the wall for the 125 class.
zehn wrote:
Funny because I remember a green 125 absolutely destroying the 250Fs in the next several years
DoctorJD wrote:
Yea, but there was a freak of nature riding the thing. Doesn't count.
Yea, but that freak of nature damned near killed himself in 2005 (I think it was 2005) trying to keep up with the 4 strokers on that 2 stroke KX 250. Southwick that year? He was waaay on the ragged edge just trying to keep up. Don't think he finished, actually.
dang472
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dang472 8/7/2020 10:27am
8/7/2020 10:27am
Also, the one race he rode a 250f on he destroyed the field more and said it was easier to do.
c0ncEpT
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c0ncEpT 8/7/2020 11:00am
8/7/2020 11:00am
Alex.434 wrote:
Whatever. When I had enough of the 4-stroke experiment back in 2012 and bought a 2013 KTM250SX it was pretty rare to see another 2-stroke at...
Whatever. When I had enough of the 4-stroke experiment back in 2012 and bought a 2013 KTM250SX it was pretty rare to see another 2-stroke at the track. Maybe you'd see one or two more.

Now in 2020 (I'm on a 2017 TC250) everytime I go to the track I see a fuckton of 2-strokes out there ripping. Huge change.

This is in Southern California btw.

I'm still laughing at DC's shitty excuse for not allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 outdoor class. Weaksauce.
I don't think it was a weak excuse at all.

He basically said that the OEM's have him by the balls. They say jump and he says how high.

Got to have some respect for him at least admitting to that.
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H4L
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H4L 8/7/2020 11:08am
8/7/2020 11:08am
zehn wrote:
Funny because I remember a green 125 absolutely destroying the 250Fs in the next several years
DoctorJD wrote:
Yea, but there was a freak of nature riding the thing. Doesn't count.
ns503 wrote:
Yea, but that freak of nature damned near killed himself in 2005 (I think it was 2005) trying to keep up with the 4 strokers on...
Yea, but that freak of nature damned near killed himself in 2005 (I think it was 2005) trying to keep up with the 4 strokers on that 2 stroke KX 250. Southwick that year? He was waaay on the ragged edge just trying to keep up. Don't think he finished, actually.
To his defense the chassis of that bike was probably one of the worst handling bikes (05-07 models) I've ridden.

https://motocrossactionmag.com/reviving-one-of-the-worst-bikes-ever-tes…

Grovesy98
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Grovesy98 8/7/2020 11:50am
8/7/2020 11:50am
I went from a 01 YZ125 to a 01 YZF426 back in 2004. That 426 was a beast! Once you got it running it would eat up any track conditions you could throw at it, but if you stalled it during a race your race was over. I went back to a 01 CR250 for a short time but then got a ride on a 04 CRF450 and bought one a few days later! The 04 CRF450 was one of the best bikes I've ever owned, and I've had around 20 bikes since then I think! I don't remember the tracks being flooded with YZFs after the 400 and 426 came out, but I can certainly remember a boom in around 04 and 05 where nearly every bike at the track was a red 450 haha
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jerry atrick moto 8/7/2020 11:51am
8/7/2020 11:51am
TriRacer27 wrote:
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders...
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders didn't really feel like they were giving up handling for power.

byke wrote:
Negative. 50cc has literally nothing to do with the success of four strokes, or the death of two strokes. It was no single thing, but it...
Negative. 50cc has literally nothing to do with the success of four strokes, or the death of two strokes. It was no single thing, but it was actually the YZ250F that did the bulk of the 2t killing. The YZ400F didn't sell very well and people were turned off to the displacement because of our 2t mentality thinking that 250cc was the ticket and anything beyond that or anything 4t was for the desert or playriding or whatever. Don't forget that there's a three year gap between the YZ400F and any other 4t mx'er, which would end up being the YZ250F. Yamaha had been working on the 250F design after they finished the 400, but a slowing economy and poor sales of the YZ400F cause them to put on the brakes, except an engineer continued with the design in his spare time. Yamaha began to realize the interest in a 250 and when they started to think about finishing the design, the engineer was able to present them with a finished product. With the design being finished they were able to respond to the market faster than anyone else and the crazy sales of the YZ250F is what truly started the 4t craze.
I would have to say i agree with this especially on the local mx level. Spring 2003 i was riding a 2002 cr250r and while most bikes at the track were still 2ts the were a few 400s and 426fs. I was 2t all the way i not riding a 4 stoke, until a buddy of mine showed up with a brand new 2002 yz250f. He offered me a ride and from the moment i took off i was amazed at how well the bike felt every were , power, handling just little finicky to start. I was hooked 2 months later my buddy bought a 2003 yz450 and i bought his yz250f and still have it to this day. been thru many of bikes since then and progressed to a 450f. Nothing will ever sound as good as a gate full of 40 250 2ts rippin up Gods green earth.....
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mxb2
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mxb2 8/7/2020 12:00pm
8/7/2020 12:00pm
Alex.434 wrote:
Whatever. When I had enough of the 4-stroke experiment back in 2012 and bought a 2013 KTM250SX it was pretty rare to see another 2-stroke at...
Whatever. When I had enough of the 4-stroke experiment back in 2012 and bought a 2013 KTM250SX it was pretty rare to see another 2-stroke at the track. Maybe you'd see one or two more.

Now in 2020 (I'm on a 2017 TC250) everytime I go to the track I see a fuckton of 2-strokes out there ripping. Huge change.

This is in Southern California btw.

I'm still laughing at DC's shitty excuse for not allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 outdoor class. Weaksauce.
c0ncEpT wrote:
I don't think it was a weak excuse at all. He basically said that the OEM's have him by the balls. They say jump and he...
I don't think it was a weak excuse at all.

He basically said that the OEM's have him by the balls. They say jump and he says how high.

Got to have some respect for him at least admitting to that.
Bingo. Dont shit where ya sleep.
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mwssquad827
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mwssquad827 8/7/2020 12:42pm
8/7/2020 12:42pm
zehn wrote:
Funny because I remember a green 125 absolutely destroying the 250Fs in the next several years
DoctorJD wrote:
Yea, but there was a freak of nature riding the thing. Doesn't count.
ns503 wrote:
Yea, but that freak of nature damned near killed himself in 2005 (I think it was 2005) trying to keep up with the 4 strokers on...
Yea, but that freak of nature damned near killed himself in 2005 (I think it was 2005) trying to keep up with the 4 strokers on that 2 stroke KX 250. Southwick that year? He was waaay on the ragged edge just trying to keep up. Don't think he finished, actually.
He wasn’t racing 250 vs 250 tho!!! That’s what a lot of people forget!! had he been racing the lights class on his 250 he would have won by 5 lap!!(sarcasm)
coastie44
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coastie44 8/7/2020 12:53pm
8/7/2020 12:53pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders...
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders didn't really feel like they were giving up handling for power.

byke wrote:
Negative. 50cc has literally nothing to do with the success of four strokes, or the death of two strokes. It was no single thing, but it...
Negative. 50cc has literally nothing to do with the success of four strokes, or the death of two strokes. It was no single thing, but it was actually the YZ250F that did the bulk of the 2t killing. The YZ400F didn't sell very well and people were turned off to the displacement because of our 2t mentality thinking that 250cc was the ticket and anything beyond that or anything 4t was for the desert or playriding or whatever. Don't forget that there's a three year gap between the YZ400F and any other 4t mx'er, which would end up being the YZ250F. Yamaha had been working on the 250F design after they finished the 400, but a slowing economy and poor sales of the YZ400F cause them to put on the brakes, except an engineer continued with the design in his spare time. Yamaha began to realize the interest in a 250 and when they started to think about finishing the design, the engineer was able to present them with a finished product. With the design being finished they were able to respond to the market faster than anyone else and the crazy sales of the YZ250F is what truly started the 4t craze.
Personally that 2002-04 CRF450 handled like crap. Front end pushed badly. The YZF actually handled a lot better (I had an '01 YZ426 and an '04 CRF at the same time), it just was waaaaaay heavier and carried it's weight up high. Yes, the evolution of the much easier starting and more "flickable" CRF pushed the two stroke aside (along with the rest of the Honda ergo's), but I would still argue that it was the YZF that proved it could be done.

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Donkey Kong
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Donkey Kong 8/7/2020 12:58pm
8/7/2020 12:58pm
GangGreen wrote:
[b]Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps...
Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps in place in professional racing that ridiculous "Double-Displacement" rule, inadvertently killing the BEST PLATFORM ever designed, the 250cc Two Stroke.




Photo Credit: Simon Cudby / RacerX
Factory 250f > Factory 250 2 stroke. If we're talking stock bikes it's pretty equal.
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byke
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byke 8/7/2020 1:10pm
8/7/2020 1:10pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders...
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders didn't really feel like they were giving up handling for power.

byke wrote:
Negative. 50cc has literally nothing to do with the success of four strokes, or the death of two strokes. It was no single thing, but it...
Negative. 50cc has literally nothing to do with the success of four strokes, or the death of two strokes. It was no single thing, but it was actually the YZ250F that did the bulk of the 2t killing. The YZ400F didn't sell very well and people were turned off to the displacement because of our 2t mentality thinking that 250cc was the ticket and anything beyond that or anything 4t was for the desert or playriding or whatever. Don't forget that there's a three year gap between the YZ400F and any other 4t mx'er, which would end up being the YZ250F. Yamaha had been working on the 250F design after they finished the 400, but a slowing economy and poor sales of the YZ400F cause them to put on the brakes, except an engineer continued with the design in his spare time. Yamaha began to realize the interest in a 250 and when they started to think about finishing the design, the engineer was able to present them with a finished product. With the design being finished they were able to respond to the market faster than anyone else and the crazy sales of the YZ250F is what truly started the 4t craze.
jerry atrick moto wrote:
I would have to say i agree with this especially on the local mx level. Spring 2003 i was riding a 2002 cr250r and while most...
I would have to say i agree with this especially on the local mx level. Spring 2003 i was riding a 2002 cr250r and while most bikes at the track were still 2ts the were a few 400s and 426fs. I was 2t all the way i not riding a 4 stoke, until a buddy of mine showed up with a brand new 2002 yz250f. He offered me a ride and from the moment i took off i was amazed at how well the bike felt every were , power, handling just little finicky to start. I was hooked 2 months later my buddy bought a 2003 yz450 and i bought his yz250f and still have it to this day. been thru many of bikes since then and progressed to a 450f. Nothing will ever sound as good as a gate full of 40 250 2ts rippin up Gods green earth.....
Yeah if you were into the moto scene at that time, you definitely saw the YZ250F explosion at the local level. Full disclosure, I do have a little insider info on this as some folks have tried several times to bring this to the public, because it really is a pretty cool story with the renegade engineer finishing the YZ250F design sneaky style, and even with wanting to portray things in the most positive light possible, Yamaha still refuses to do anything more than have off-the-record conversations about it to avoid looking like the 2t "bad guy", though they're the only Japanese mfr cool enough to keep selling them. It's always a world of unintended consequences and they should be cut some slack. I don't recall what motivated them to start working on the YZ400F, but I think it may have been the rumors swirling around the upcoming CARB 2t ban, which didn't materialize in as strict a manner as the early rumors indicated. Anyway, the short answer to what could have been the first stab at killing 2t's could simply be....because California gonna California.
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