The Bike that Killed the 2 Stroke!

ktm 125
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8/7/2020 1:13pm
1st of all i love 2 strokes. for 20 years i rode only them except for 2010 when i switched to a yamaha 450 just to sell 6 months later. but i saw the advantages of the bike. the real question 4 me is this: ok 250 2t vs 450 4t is unfair but if 2 strokes where f.e. 450 would they be ridable? apart from the thirsty for gas motor and apart for the vibrations could they be smooth yet powerfull like a 450? ofcourse 125 2t vs 250 4t is much more unfair imo but i think 250 is the golden displacement for a 2 stroke. im not talking about ancient 500 but i rode some 300 and didnt like them much. i think with todays technology a 2 stroke lose some of its advantages once passed the 250cc. i hope injection allow them to go for the next step, its the only solution. i wouldnt mind for an e bie too just for us to have 3 options and 3 debates on the net!!!!
endurox
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8/7/2020 4:02pm
It was the AMA that tried to kill the 2 stroke by allowing double the displacement. 2 strokes are alive and well in most of the world(excluding Ca.)
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Dropbear
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8/7/2020 4:35pm
The writing was on the wall in 1992 when Jacky Martens signed up to ride the 610 Husky in the WC. Won the title in ‘93 and the rest is history. Yamaha got cracking on working on a bike that Bartolini would develop and win on.

The Shop

Airick
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8/7/2020 5:21pm
So what came first, the scare of banning the two-stroke because of emissions or the competitive four stroke?
Dropbear
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8/7/2020 5:29pm
Airick wrote:
So what came first, the scare of banning the two-stroke because of emissions or the competitive four stroke?
I think the latter.
G-man
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8/7/2020 5:53pm
Grovesy98 wrote:
I went from a 01 YZ125 to a 01 YZF426 back in 2004. That 426 was a beast! Once you got it running it would eat...
I went from a 01 YZ125 to a 01 YZF426 back in 2004. That 426 was a beast! Once you got it running it would eat up any track conditions you could throw at it, but if you stalled it during a race your race was over. I went back to a 01 CR250 for a short time but then got a ride on a 04 CRF450 and bought one a few days later! The 04 CRF450 was one of the best bikes I've ever owned, and I've had around 20 bikes since then I think! I don't remember the tracks being flooded with YZFs after the 400 and 426 came out, but I can certainly remember a boom in around 04 and 05 where nearly every bike at the track was a red 450 haha
Yep once I learned the trick to starting my 426 I luved that bike.

I had just turned 40 and joined the AZOTMX club. Could not believe how planted and
stable the bike felt.


After that had a 03 CRF450 and still have my 06 CRF450 which is a great bike and I'm in my 60's.



If I was to get a new Moto bike it would be a 350 as I luv my 350 XCF-W for Off-road. But I doubt that would ever happen as I'm just too freaking OLD! Unsure


I don't get all the hate towards them other then the displacement issue when racing.

And of course I do luv the sound and to see a crisp running 2-Stroke on the track.

Can't we just all get along? Laughing
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byke
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8/7/2020 6:17pm
I don't know why anyone cares about the number anyway. Okay you have a two billion and I have either a one billion or a four billion, so what. As if the number itself has some solidified reference point in order for the universe to function and we all go floating off into space if the numbers are different.
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Airick
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8/7/2020 6:33pm
byke wrote:
I don't know why anyone cares about the number anyway. Okay you have a two billion and I have either a one billion or a four...
I don't know why anyone cares about the number anyway. Okay you have a two billion and I have either a one billion or a four billion, so what. As if the number itself has some solidified reference point in order for the universe to function and we all go floating off into space if the numbers are different.
Lsd?
3
Alex.434
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8/7/2020 7:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2020 7:14pm
Alex.434 wrote:
Whatever. When I had enough of the 4-stroke experiment back in 2012 and bought a 2013 KTM250SX it was pretty rare to see another 2-stroke at...
Whatever. When I had enough of the 4-stroke experiment back in 2012 and bought a 2013 KTM250SX it was pretty rare to see another 2-stroke at the track. Maybe you'd see one or two more.

Now in 2020 (I'm on a 2017 TC250) everytime I go to the track I see a fuckton of 2-strokes out there ripping. Huge change.

This is in Southern California btw.

I'm still laughing at DC's shitty excuse for not allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 outdoor class. Weaksauce.
c0ncEpT wrote:
I don't think it was a weak excuse at all. He basically said that the OEM's have him by the balls. They say jump and he...
I don't think it was a weak excuse at all.

He basically said that the OEM's have him by the balls. They say jump and he says how high.

Got to have some respect for him at least admitting to that.
Somehow everyone but the US Pro Series can figure it out.

Oh well. Boohoo.
8/7/2020 7:14pm
If i could own both (and many on here actually do) I would. I ride more woods than track but both are equally as fun to ride in their own ways. 4 stroke on the track any day if you want to clear a jump with ease.
CPR
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8/7/2020 7:31pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2020 7:32pm
GangGreen wrote:
[b]Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps...
Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps in place in professional racing that ridiculous "Double-Displacement" rule, inadvertently killing the BEST PLATFORM ever designed, the 250cc Two Stroke.




Photo Credit: Simon Cudby / RacerX
BroFoSho wrote:
250 four-strokes are still better than 250 two-strokes...

Case in point... Canadian Nationals
If that was the case, then why in Canadian and Australian moto where they have real 250cc classes, are 2t modifications restricted and 4t not?
To make it fair that’s why....oh and because the factory teams cried about their squillion dollar 4t bikes being holeshot by privateers on two-bangers.
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Falcon
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8/7/2020 7:38pm
GangGreen wrote:
[b]Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps...
Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps in place in professional racing that ridiculous "Double-Displacement" rule, inadvertently killing the BEST PLATFORM ever designed, the 250cc Two Stroke.




Photo Credit: Simon Cudby / RacerX
Factory 250f > Factory 250 2 stroke. If we're talking stock bikes it's pretty equal.
A factory 250f might beat a stock 250 2-stroke, but not factory to factory. 2-stokes are simply faster, cc to cc. By a lot. Stock bikes aren't even close; a two stroke owns a 250f in most conditions.
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1
8/7/2020 8:38pm
98 yzf400 makes me laugh. At the 1st race in 98, a wet deep sand track. There where crashing everywhere. In narrow corners, I had to run there bike over. My favorite berm , there So slow entering the corner , on the 125 wide open in 4th into the corner. Easiest bike to pass all day. Even on a hard pack track, catch them in a bowl turn on the inside and run them high. Riders where afraid to stall them. They never gave ya a battle, if ya bang them 1 time. Yzf400 so loud also, nobody liked the sound of them. Even Henry at 97 Gainsville, spectators hated the sound of the 400.
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8/7/2020 9:02pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2020 9:07pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders...
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders didn't really feel like they were giving up handling for power.

TiRacer is right.. it is the CRF and not the YZF that killed the 2 stroke. Yamaha still sells all its 2 stroke MXers. When Yamaha came to the market with a competitive 4 stroke, overly proud Honda Japan was furious. At the debut of the YZF in Japan, all the Honda engineers were surrounding and commenting on the YZF and they only then started development of their own. The bike below was the one that did it. Honda's engine was a hot running, hard starting, back-firing piece of crap wrapped in a decent chassis IMHO. When Tortelli shut the engine off hot, he couldn't restart it. At the end of the last moto, my son stepped in front of Tortelli on the way back to the pits and he stalled the bike. Tortelli kicked and kicked.. having to take a break between kicking sessions before he finally got that pig started. Every time a rode a 2002-2004 CRF450, I couldn't wait to give it back.






Honda's latest 2 stroke engines were quite pitiful at the time. They pushed for the unfair displacement advantage in pro racing and phased out their 2 strokes. Kawasaki and Suzuki followed.
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bents
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8/7/2020 9:17pm
Had a 99 YZ400F and I would argue to this day it was the sweetest 4 stroke motor made. Not too much power-super smooth and not intimidating. Handled great. Aside from the starting procedure (and stalling it while hot), it was an amazing motorcycle.
Tenacious P
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8/7/2020 11:39pm
Gimme a 2022 KX250 2 stroke. Better yet gimme a KX300 built for the track. I’d sell all my bikes and pick one up new. The ‘97 KX250 was a super sick bike.
1
kiwifan
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8/8/2020 2:11pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders...
Sorry, the YZF started the attack on the 2-stroke, but this is the bike that really killed it. This was the first bike were pro riders didn't really feel like they were giving up handling for power.

TiRacer is right.. it is the CRF and not the YZF that killed the 2 stroke. Yamaha still sells all its 2 stroke MXers. When Yamaha...
TiRacer is right.. it is the CRF and not the YZF that killed the 2 stroke. Yamaha still sells all its 2 stroke MXers. When Yamaha came to the market with a competitive 4 stroke, overly proud Honda Japan was furious. At the debut of the YZF in Japan, all the Honda engineers were surrounding and commenting on the YZF and they only then started development of their own. The bike below was the one that did it. Honda's engine was a hot running, hard starting, back-firing piece of crap wrapped in a decent chassis IMHO. When Tortelli shut the engine off hot, he couldn't restart it. At the end of the last moto, my son stepped in front of Tortelli on the way back to the pits and he stalled the bike. Tortelli kicked and kicked.. having to take a break between kicking sessions before he finally got that pig started. Every time a rode a 2002-2004 CRF450, I couldn't wait to give it back.






Honda's latest 2 stroke engines were quite pitiful at the time. They pushed for the unfair displacement advantage in pro racing and phased out their 2 strokes. Kawasaki and Suzuki followed.
You need to check your history, Yamaha lobbied very hard (and won) to change the rules, it just fell into Hondas hands (and the others to be fair).

And if you saw the starting gates back in 99,00,01 they were mostly YZF's... Hondas were late to the party
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G-man
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8/8/2020 2:31pm
kiwifan wrote:
You need to check your history, Yamaha lobbied very hard (and won) to change the rules, it just fell into Hondas hands (and the others to...
You need to check your history, Yamaha lobbied very hard (and won) to change the rules, it just fell into Hondas hands (and the others to be fair).

And if you saw the starting gates back in 99,00,01 they were mostly YZF's... Hondas were late to the party
Yea I was a bit confused as well on what TT was talking about Honda came out with a 4 stroke 4 years later.

Yamaha is the one who took advantage of the rules. I was at the race in Vegas when Doug Henry made the debut on it.

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8/8/2020 5:31pm
Kiwifan/Gman: Yamaha could not get the displacement rules changed to the current 450cc unless the other big manufacturers like Honda were on board with it. It would be naive to think Yamaha did that all by themselves without the other manufacturers on board.

Also, you missed the bigger point about Yamaha continuing to sell its full line of 2 strokes to this day. Honda and the others did not.. and Honda is the sales powerhouse of the Japanese 4 that the other 3 not uncommonly follow. MX bikes are more than just pro racing, so isn't what killed the 2 stroke the simple fact Honda and 2 other big Japanese manufacturers stopped selling them??? And if we can agree to that point, isn't the fact that Yamaha is still selling its full line of 2 strokes not complicit in the bigger factor of what killed the 2 stroke??
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kiwifan
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8/8/2020 5:38pm Edited Date/Time 8/8/2020 5:44pm
Kiwifan/Gman: Yamaha could not get the displacement rules changed to the current 450cc unless the other big manufacturers like Honda were on board with it. It...
Kiwifan/Gman: Yamaha could not get the displacement rules changed to the current 450cc unless the other big manufacturers like Honda were on board with it. It would be naive to think Yamaha did that all by themselves without the other manufacturers on board.

Also, you missed the bigger point about Yamaha continuing to sell its full line of 2 strokes to this day. Honda and the others did not.. and Honda is the sales powerhouse of the Japanese 4 that the other 3 not uncommonly follow. MX bikes are more than just pro racing, so isn't what killed the 2 stroke the simple fact Honda and 2 other big Japanese manufacturers stopped selling them??? And if we can agree to that point, isn't the fact that Yamaha is still selling its full line of 2 strokes not complicit in the bigger factor of what killed the 2 stroke??
Yes, but it was Yamaha who pushed for the rules change not any other brand, just that they needed the support of all of the other brands. It was also Yamaha who pushed for the production rule (which was a good thing to happen)

Yes they stopped making them true, and Yamaha still does make them (well kind of I suppose, they are no where near as modern as a KTM/Husky/Gas Gas/TM/ etc etc). And it is you who is missing the point it could well be that if Yamaha did not push for the 4 stroke rule (and therefore enticing other brands to come on board) that we would still have 2 strokes being produced by ALL brands ...who knows. It is all speculation. The crux of the problem was that 4 stroke ruling, full stop.

Also, lets put ourselves in the manufacturers shoes, they (like it or not) make more money from 4 strokes than 2 strokes, so why would they lose margins to satisfy a few, they are running a business.

Interestingly enough, Beta are starting to take a few sales off KTM/Husky now....I wonder how long before KTM buys them out.

Finally, if you want Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki to either make or make more 2 strokes than isnt that going to hurt KTM/Husky/Gas Gas/etc sales....is that what you want? Seriously?
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sdmx
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8/8/2020 5:39pm
I just want equal displacement Blush
CivBars wrote:
All CC's Matter
Yes!!!!!
RudyRayMo
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8/9/2020 1:29am
Stock 2003 yz450f would pull your arms out of socket lol I knew then it was over.
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Bearuno
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8/9/2020 5:31am
Yamaha Did Not have the rules changed in the 250cc class in the USA.

The USA long had rules that allowed up to 540cc 4ts in the 250 class. Remember the KTM in SX? You blokes need to know some real rules history.

As for the 125 class, I think for many years it was around the 175 /180cc mark that a 4 Stroke could be - but I'll willingly concede that I'd be wrong on that.

The 85cc class : 125cc 4ts could be used in the USA, but from what I read, Honda realized that it would have been rather unreliable / highly strung, so they made the 150, and tried to steam roller associations into accepting it - most did, but some, told them No. And later, many withdrew that allowance.

Honda announced in '97, that in 10 years - 2007, that would be the last of their production of 2 strokes. I found it gobsmacking that the vast majority of Journalists, let alone Riders, did not heed or know of that. As a company, Honda were always 4 stroke oriented. It was inculcated by Soichiro Honda himself - he Hated 2ts. . They made 2ts, only when they Had to with Racing and the Market demands - money talks.

Environmental issues with 2ts? Yes, they were, and are, an easy target. ''Horrible, Smoking Things". Don't get your knickers in a knot - I ride / own 2ts - well I ride / own 4ts as well. The irony now is All ICE powered vehicles are being ever more demonized.......

But, more so than that, was the imperative of using the technology being poured into 4ts, with Road Bikes, and Superbikes. With so much learned by that avenue of development and production, it was logical to apply it over a wide range of product. Especially when there was a very significant capacity advantage allowed by the rules. Doing away with another, in Manufacturers eyes, separate Development Stream- that of 2 Strokes - was logical to most of them.

Me , I love ICE bikes, but I will happily buy an E Bike, when what I want of one, becomes a reality. While keeping my ICE Bikes.

But, I want Equivalency - Capacity for Capacity.

4 Strokes ceased needing Handicap Class rules, about 2 decades ago. It's complete BS, and controllers of the sport that don't allow it, are doing the Sport a huge disservice, and, they are spineless for Not introducing Equivalency. And those that allow it, but restrict modifications to 2Ts, whilst allowing near open slather on 4T modifications, are just as complicit with damaging the Sport.


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CPR
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8/9/2020 6:32am
Tell us what you really think Bearuno 😂👍
devotid
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8/9/2020 7:44am
I was there. Smile

I was just a little guy but when we went to the Detroit Supercross that year and I heard DH's new 4 stroke...... I was hooked. WHOMP WHOMP WHOMP..... Smile
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Bearuno
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8/9/2020 8:41am
CPR wrote:
Tell us what you really think Bearuno 😂👍
Nah, you'll never get me to come out of my uncommunicative, taciturn, shell ! Whistling
1
8/9/2020 11:03am
GangGreen wrote:
[b]Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps...
Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps in place in professional racing that ridiculous "Double-Displacement" rule, inadvertently killing the BEST PLATFORM ever designed, the 250cc Two Stroke.




Photo Credit: Simon Cudby / RacerX
BroFoSho wrote:
250 four-strokes are still better than 250 two-strokes...

Case in point... Canadian Nationals
Better???? How?
1
yamahaha131
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8/9/2020 4:21pm
A video about the YZ400f killing the 2 stroke, and you pit it against a YZ125 to compare? :blink:
A video about the YZ400f killing the 2 stroke, and you pit it against a YZ125 to compare? Blink
What can i say...we didn't have a 250 available to us! haha I thought it would just be fun to see the difference and to be...
What can i say...we didn't have a 250 available to us! haha I thought it would just be fun to see the difference and to be honest I didn't think the 400 would even be able to come close to the 125!
Very well done video. I believe the 250 2 stroke would have also been a fun comparison. There’s always variables people will complain about. Put the 400 against a 125 in some deep loamy conditions and the gap probably would have been larger also. Regardless, great job!

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