Those flaggers don't know how to flag

Triton
Posts
618
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
Redmond, WA US
6/4/2017 10:30am
Davey - thanks for the response and good to see some action taking place. But why does it take stuff like this? And I stand by my comment that local, for hire, non professional flaggers are an issue. A team of flaggers that are professionally trained and travel need to happen. It doesn't matter if Joe blow knows the track like the back of his hand. He has zero vested interest to get bold and redirect traffic. Having an ex pro sprint up a hill and grab the flag is proof of this. This is a professional sport, why is there a reliance on non professional staff?
Triton
Posts
618
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
Redmond, WA US
6/4/2017 10:32am
ns503 wrote:
I think this is mostly on the riders ignoring the flags - seemed like there were lots waving. Are flaggers actually supposed to go out on...
I think this is mostly on the riders ignoring the flags - seemed like there were lots waving.

Are flaggers actually supposed to go out on the track like Nick did? I don't think I would be wanting that job if so - and the heat of the moment was already mostly past by the time he did what he did. He likely wouldn't have done that with a pile of bikes coming at him & not doing what they were supposed to be doing. Not sure him jumping in when he did actually helped much.

Plessinger also wasn't helping much with the waving around he was doing - that would send riders away from him, which was into the downed bike.
Riders have no incentive to do anything with a yellow flag if there is no consistency in how it is used and what it means. As for not wanting to jump out there, that is the exact point as to why these need to be professionals and not local for hire guys.
bc775
Posts
141
Joined
3/26/2017
Location
Parma, MI US
Fantasy
2891st
6/4/2017 10:42am
JustMX wrote:
So, let's see if I understand this.... You agree that the riders were not slowing down for a waving yellow flag that is just a about...
So, let's see if I understand this....

You agree that the riders were not slowing down for a waving yellow flag that is just a about impossible to miss, and your solution is for the flagger to step out in front of them......

I ask again, which way was the flagger supposed to direct them... to the right side of the bike on a 3' strip, towards the rider waving his arms, or invent some kind of signal that he hopes the riders will translate as " bike on one side, rider trying to cross on the other"

It was a complicated situation made worse by it happening on a blind jump that also had a corner. The riders were actually hitting the jump in the middle and landing on the outside. Plessinger actually made it worse by waving his hands over his head so the riders saw him first and must have assumed that was where the problem was. The one thing that would have made the entire thing much worse was a flagger getting hit and knocked forwards on the track adding to the obstructions on the blind side of the jump.

While it was a sucky situation for plessinger, he crashed and added to the confusion. What if he had taken the same chance you are asking the flaggers to take and trusted that the riders would use caution when they see a waving flag? He also could have gone up the hill lime he ended up doing and crossed the track, then the flaggers would have had a clear choice to direct the riders.

As it ended up, nobody got hurt, including plessinger. Calling the flaggers asshats and retarded is silly. It is always easy to sit on the couch watching it repeatedly and play coulda/shoulda/would but to blame the flaggers for ap having to wait and his bike getting hit when they did exactly the one thing they could do is wrong.

The only true remedy would have been for the riders to actually use CAUTION.
You do realize ap wasnt a hazard. He was off the track. The riders should of been directed to the left just like nick wey did to avoid the hazard which was his bike. They're many to blame for the poor reaction to the yellow flag yesterday but i do believe the flaggers should of directed traffic like nick wey did. In that situation flaggers are the eyes for the rides coming up to a blind area.
GreaseMeter
Posts
94
Joined
5/18/2017
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
6/4/2017 10:47am Edited Date/Time 6/4/2017 10:58am
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and invest in a legit, trained, professionally flagging team that travels the circuit.

The Shop

bc775
Posts
141
Joined
3/26/2017
Location
Parma, MI US
Fantasy
2891st
6/4/2017 10:52am
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and...
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and invest in a legit, trained, professionally flagging team that travels the circuit.
You do realize nbc gets that money and mxsports probably just gets a kickback. And i hope youre kidding about Dc. Hes done alot for mx. Hell if it wasnt for him i bet we would be at round 22 of supercross right now.
sickboy3636
Posts
453
Joined
5/29/2017
Location
Justin, TX US
6/4/2017 10:53am
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and...
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and invest in a legit, trained, professionally flagging team that travels the circuit.
Theres one in every crowd......and you're that guy. Davey is nice enough to come on here and address all the endless bitching, which I personally commend him for. But having dudes like you on this forum is no help for anyone here getting legitimacy in the ear of MX.
#Thanks for taking time out of your day to comment DC.
sickboy3636
Posts
453
Joined
5/29/2017
Location
Justin, TX US
6/4/2017 11:00am
Triton wrote:
Davey - thanks for the response and good to see some action taking place. But why does it take stuff like this? And I stand by...
Davey - thanks for the response and good to see some action taking place. But why does it take stuff like this? And I stand by my comment that local, for hire, non professional flaggers are an issue. A team of flaggers that are professionally trained and travel need to happen. It doesn't matter if Joe blow knows the track like the back of his hand. He has zero vested interest to get bold and redirect traffic. Having an ex pro sprint up a hill and grab the flag is proof of this. This is a professional sport, why is there a reliance on non professional staff?
I agree with what you're saying but it always takes situations like this......and I don't care what sport you're talking about. You can't teach every possible scenario ahead of time and sometimes you have to address things on the fly. Its easy for all of us to sit here and assume they need to have their head outta their ass....but the truth is, MX is a fast paced sport and the intensity of it far surpasses many other sports. The lessons learned here will help for the next couple years until everyone forgets and has to learn the same lessons over again. The wheels on the ground during yellow may be a helpful remedy, but unless that happens.....yellow flags will be dealt with much like a yellow lights.
lostboy819
Posts
11516
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1342nd
6/4/2017 11:35am
Seeing that Nic wanted to flag so bad if I was the flaggers I would have told him to just keep it and finish out the day. Wink
moto0852
Posts
944
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Draper, UT US
6/4/2017 11:50am
lostboy819 wrote:
Seeing that Nic wanted to flag so bad if I was the flaggers I would have told him to just keep it and finish out the...
Seeing that Nic wanted to flag so bad if I was the flaggers I would have told him to just keep it and finish out the day. Wink
It seems that your assessment of the job Nick did is not in alignment with everybody else's praise...including the track owner and MX sports owner (Davey) NYC as always was embarrassingly good.
TXDirt
Posts
7399
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX US
6/4/2017 11:55am
This is very simple. Flagger is trying to send riders one way. Plesenger was on the other side sending riders the opposite way (toward danger).

How about riders don't try and direct traffic?
mxb2
Posts
22488
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD US
6/4/2017 12:01pm
A few hot dogs, event tee, and 15 hr day won't get ya much,. Just some locals who like the sport. Agreed hire a team, train them, pay them.
SPYGUY
Posts
2020
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
US
Fantasy
748th
6/4/2017 12:16pm
You can't really blame the riders in this situation. Much more often than not the flaggers will be waving the flags just like that for a rider that is off the side of the track with relatively little danger to the downed rider or oncoming traffic.

If a rider slowed down every time he saw yellow flags, he's get shuffled to the back in every single moto.
mxjon454
Posts
1448
Joined
10/27/2009
Location
Menifee, CA US
6/4/2017 12:16pm
Well what do you expect out of a flagger when mxsports is probably paying them 10 bucks an hour and not to mention some of them look like they just got done runninng a stand at the local county fair. If they want better flaggers, have them do a course on flagging and pay them 25-30 bucks an hr. Im sure there will be better people willing to flag for the day.
GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
6/4/2017 12:44pm
JustMX wrote:
Yeah..... having a regular crew following the national series will fix the riders not paying attention to the flags
How many flaggers are we talking to implement your plan per race? 20? 40?

I'm all for safety, but..

Multiply the number you think would be sufficient by the cost per flights, hotels, rental cars, meals, pay, etc.

I had a different angle on that action. The bike was in a totally blind spot. It's actually amazing that only one rider hit it. Aaron ended up off the side of the track because he wisely ran to the side and hurdled the banners.

Could they have more aggressively tried to guide the riders? Yes.

Experienced flaggers are a must. One of the two was an official, but I'm not sure he could tell where the bike was from his position.
mxb2
Posts
22488
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD US
6/4/2017 12:48pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2017 12:48pm
mxjon454 wrote:
Well what do you expect out of a flagger when mxsports is probably paying them 10 bucks an hour and not to mention some of them...
Well what do you expect out of a flagger when mxsports is probably paying them 10 bucks an hour and not to mention some of them look like they just got done runninng a stand at the local county fair. If they want better flaggers, have them do a course on flagging and pay them 25-30 bucks an hr. Im sure there will be better people willing to flag for the day.
X2, not sure what the pay rate is, if any. A cool event to work, but ya get what ya pay for. Riders need protected as much as possible,. Hiring a young kid isn't a good idea, imo.
GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
6/4/2017 1:19pm
bc775 wrote:
You do realize ap wasnt a hazard. He was off the track. The riders should of been directed to the left just like nick wey did...
You do realize ap wasnt a hazard. He was off the track. The riders should of been directed to the left just like nick wey did to avoid the hazard which was his bike. They're many to blame for the poor reaction to the yellow flag yesterday but i do believe the flaggers should of directed traffic like nick wey did. In that situation flaggers are the eyes for the rides coming up to a blind area.
With him just waving and not providing directions to the oncoming traffic, I don't think he helped the situation.

By standing where he was, it suggested moving right.

As for why guys wouldn't slow down? It's the second lap of a moto, where everyone was still pretty bunched together. None of those guys are going to give up any advantage unless they think there's a big enough issue to merit it.
GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
6/4/2017 1:21pm
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and...
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and invest in a legit, trained, professionally flagging team that travels the circuit.
You should probably read more and post less. Smile
6/4/2017 1:50pm
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and...
DC should take the money earned today through NBC Gold subscriptions (I am sure several were purchased because of not showing the 2nd motos today) and invest in a legit, trained, professionally flagging team that travels the circuit.
GuyB wrote:
You should probably read more and post less. Smile
Greezybeefer, this is a good suggestion. You should take it, but only after your sprocket bolts are torqued. Please use a freshly calibrated torque wrench.
MXMattii
Posts
4181
Joined
3/6/2010
Location
BE
6/4/2017 1:54pm
Triton wrote:
This is entirely on Davey. This is a professional sport. There should be zero for hire flaggers doing this just to get close to the action...
This is entirely on Davey. This is a professional sport. There should be zero for hire flaggers doing this just to get close to the action. Buck up put professionally trained flaggers together. They would go race to race. How scary and embarrassing. It's amazing how much progress is made forward yet there are still things like this amateur hour that make this sport hard to take seriously anymore.

There should be no excuses from Davey on this and a crew should be put together from here on out. Get on it.
You're being ignorant. But let me take your thinking a bit further...

Did you ever saw a marshal jump into the oval to make the NASCAR racers obey the Yellow Flags?
Did you ever saw a marshal jump into the track to make the MotoGP riders obey the Yellow Flags?
Did you ever saw a marshal jump into the track to make the F1 drivers obey the flags?

No and do you know why? Because they know what yellow means. That riders just ignore rules make the sport idiotic. Because 100% of every petrol head knows what yellow means, everyone who sees this coverage on ESPN Bloopers will know what those marshals were doing. But they also will notice that the riders don't give a damn.
DanDunes818
Posts
6946
Joined
10/11/2008
Location
Portland, OR US
6/4/2017 1:55pm
JustMX wrote:
Yeah..... having a regular crew following the national series will fix the riders not paying attention to the flags
GuyB wrote:
How many flaggers are we talking to implement your plan per race? 20? 40? I'm all for safety, but.. Multiply the number you think would be...
How many flaggers are we talking to implement your plan per race? 20? 40?

I'm all for safety, but..

Multiply the number you think would be sufficient by the cost per flights, hotels, rental cars, meals, pay, etc.

I had a different angle on that action. The bike was in a totally blind spot. It's actually amazing that only one rider hit it. Aaron ended up off the side of the track because he wisely ran to the side and hurdled the banners.

Could they have more aggressively tried to guide the riders? Yes.

Experienced flaggers are a must. One of the two was an official, but I'm not sure he could tell where the bike was from his position.
Gibby, I get that argument and totally agree that flying 30 flaggers to every event and paying them a wage is not feasible, but we have 12 fixed venues. It seems like getting a permanent crew of locals being properly trained and well paid for their respective national seems feasible. This can be life or death situation at times.

When I say well trained, I mean shown all blind spots at their respective circuits and given specific direction on how to flag very specific situations in those blind spots. They need to be shown how to get a racer at race pace to go in the direction away from danger. I flagged probably over 50 events at Indian Dunes (it's how I earned money on my off-weekends) and at 10-11 years old I was doing what Nick Wey did with riders like Holley, Ward and O'mara coming at me on a given weekend. We need flaggers that you can trust to take control of a situation and because of that they know they are allowed to take control of a situation. I get it, there are insurance liability issues and I totally understand not letting a guy you don't know much about to enter the track, but a well trained crew seems like it would be less of a liability.

I talked to the (Blue Shirt) flagger in this video and was told he is pretty much given a small area where he is allowed to stand and where he can go. I was told they are directed that under no circumstances are they enter the track for any situation. They get in trouble and possibly fired if they modify that area at all. He felt his hands were totally tied and was even put in a more constricting situation with an MXSports official right there at the top of hill. I think from talking to him that he wanted to do what Nick Wey did, but felt his hands were tied.
motokawi818
Posts
836
Joined
4/7/2008
Location
Kennewick, WA US
6/4/2017 2:06pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Seeing that Nic wanted to flag so bad if I was the flaggers I would have told him to just keep it and finish out the...
Seeing that Nic wanted to flag so bad if I was the flaggers I would have told him to just keep it and finish out the day. Wink
Are you seriously arguing what wey did was wrong?
Hut
Posts
10286
Joined
4/27/2010
Location
WA US
6/4/2017 2:12pm
Remember that time when Canard re-broke his femur at Washougal and the fan jumped the fence to flag the riders away from Trey. That dude was a hero in my book
6/4/2017 2:24pm
The riders are out there putting their lives and health on the line.
The least they should expect is flaggers who are competent.

In this particular case, there is video evidence of any and all (flaggers, Plessinger, other competitors) who may have violated the rules...will there or should there be any consequences?
Triton
Posts
618
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
Redmond, WA US
6/4/2017 2:29pm
GuyB wrote:
How many flaggers are we talking to implement your plan per race? 20? 40? I'm all for safety, but.. Multiply the number you think would be...
How many flaggers are we talking to implement your plan per race? 20? 40?

I'm all for safety, but..

Multiply the number you think would be sufficient by the cost per flights, hotels, rental cars, meals, pay, etc.

I had a different angle on that action. The bike was in a totally blind spot. It's actually amazing that only one rider hit it. Aaron ended up off the side of the track because he wisely ran to the side and hurdled the banners.

Could they have more aggressively tried to guide the riders? Yes.

Experienced flaggers are a must. One of the two was an official, but I'm not sure he could tell where the bike was from his position.
How much they would cost is not an excuse. This is a professional sport and we are talking safety. So we are saying that corners need to be cut regarding safety to save some money? If it's 20 then it's its 20 or 40. Cost is not a valid excuse. Yeah it's going to be expensive. It needs to be figured out. Again, is this not a professional sport? Show me another professional sport that uses local, for hire labor to govern safety. The times of cutting corners on this is over. I'd be pissed if I was any of the riders.
mxb2
Posts
22488
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD US
6/4/2017 2:39pm
Can anyone confirm wages,?
DanDunes818
Posts
6946
Joined
10/11/2008
Location
Portland, OR US
6/4/2017 2:43pm
I see videos on YouTube all the time of National flaggers filming while doing their job. It's so often that I just looked today and found one from a week ago at Glen Helen. Here's the video of the flagger from Glen Helen last weekend. He thought that during a moto it was a good idea to take a selfie video to talk about how it was such a treat to flag for the best racers on earth. Not sure he can be really effective if something happens while he's uploading his YouTube video.



KMC440
Posts
7764
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
6/4/2017 3:00pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2017 3:02pm
Simple solution DC ...
Every flagging station has two easily movable "tuff-blocks" that an "official" can swiftly move into place to block a side of the track (yes sell sponsorships on them as gruesome as it may end up being). One on each side of the track so no one has to cross the track to get it into position (There's plenty enough industry personnel, man friends, towel waving fluffers to accommodate this).
Put a damn whistle around a flaggers neck and they'll get the attention of all those around and can then direct the people closest by what to do quickly.
Lastly... yellow means no jumping or passing.

Oh and by the way the flagging video I made 13yrs ago that the AMA turned their .... oh screw it. Just work on it. Thanks.
JustMX
Posts
4617
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
6/4/2017 3:23pm
JustMX wrote:
Yeah..... having a regular crew following the national series will fix the riders not paying attention to the flags
GuyB wrote:
How many flaggers are we talking to implement your plan per race? 20? 40? I'm all for safety, but.. Multiply the number you think would be...
How many flaggers are we talking to implement your plan per race? 20? 40?

I'm all for safety, but..

Multiply the number you think would be sufficient by the cost per flights, hotels, rental cars, meals, pay, etc.

I had a different angle on that action. The bike was in a totally blind spot. It's actually amazing that only one rider hit it. Aaron ended up off the side of the track because he wisely ran to the side and hurdled the banners.

Could they have more aggressively tried to guide the riders? Yes.

Experienced flaggers are a must. One of the two was an official, but I'm not sure he could tell where the bike was from his position.
Guy, I guess I wasn't sarcastic enough with that reply. I will clarify.

I do not think taking a complete flag crew on the road is going to make much difference if the riders are going to ignore the flags like they did in this situation.
6/4/2017 3:31pm
JustMX wrote:
Guy, I guess I wasn't sarcastic enough with that reply. I will clarify. I do not think taking a complete flag crew on the road is...
Guy, I guess I wasn't sarcastic enough with that reply. I will clarify.

I do not think taking a complete flag crew on the road is going to make much difference if the riders are going to ignore the flags like they did in this situation.
I got it JustMX
Original 44
Posts
515
Joined
12/4/2008
Location
Chardon, OH US
6/4/2017 4:12pm Edited Date/Time 6/4/2017 5:16pm
DC wrote:
This is entirely on Davey. This is a professional sport. There should be zero for hire flaggers doing this just to get close to the action...
This is entirely on Davey. This is a professional sport. There should be zero for hire flaggers doing this just to get close to the action. Buck up put professionally trained flaggers together. They would go race to race. How scary and embarrassing. It's amazing how much progress is made forward yet there are still things like this amateur hour that make this sport hard to take seriously anymore. There should be no excuses from Davey on this and a crew should be put together from here on out. Get on it.

The flagger in the red and blue shirt was an MX Sports employee, part of the crew that goes to every race. The other flagger was a track employee, flags every race there. Nick Wey is a former professional racer. Aaron Plessinger is a professional racer. The other 39 guys on the track were professional racers. No one was there "just to get close to the action" but it was a tough situation, for many reasons.

I was not at the race, so I watched and screamed at my computer for the flaggers to slow the riders down like everyone else probably did, and Nick Wey thankfully did in person. The riders were not paying attention to the flags and certainly not slowing down enough. We will be reviewing this photo tomorrow with the entire crew and trying to figure out what could have been done to make the situation safer, and not add any danger as well (which sometimes happens when a flagger gets out on the track in a different situation). We are on it and will do our best to learn from this and prevent it from happening moving forward. I've already been in contact with Jim Downey of the Brett Downey Safety Foundation this morning on some ideas.

This was also the same spot where we came up with the Wheels on the Ground flag after Austin Stroupe's bike got run over back in 2010, but the jump changed and they moved the WOG flags down to the double before it. I'm glad Aaron is okay, glad Nick was there to jump in and glad no one got hurt, though it was painful to watch.

DC
Racer X

Davey,
Thanks for chiming in. It appeared to me that the riders didn't see the flaggers in time. The flaggers appear to be more in a blind spots. They need to be on the front side of the jump so the riders had time to react to the flaggers. Not complaining just giving you my opinion. Thanks

Post a reply to: Those flaggers don't know how to flag

The Latest