2013 crf450 no start

jonboy688
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jonboy688
Got a really nice 2013 crf450, traded for it as is non running, followed the guy that had the bike and all the stuff he tried and checked. Anyways the bike is fairly modded and will not start. Has great compression and nothing odd.

Bike has spark
Just installed brand new fuel pump with no change.
Checked timing and was off maybe a tooth, has pro circuit camshaft. Fixed timing and no change.
Nothing is blocking airflow in the air box.
He swapped the vortex pcm for a stock one and no change.
He said the injector was spraying when turning over, but I don’t smell fuel and can’t get it to hit a lick. I am leaning towards map,tps, or injector.? I guess it could also be the capacitor or rectifier.
Any simple test or tips to check stuff? I hate to just throw money at it and not fix it.
I ordered a complete throttle body off of eBay that has the injector,map, and tps sensor that I am going to try.
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FGR01
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FGR01 1/29/2018 7:22pm
1/29/2018 7:22pm
Very likely a fuel delivery issue and the most common causes are the capacitor, the ECM, or the coolant or air temp sensors. Easiest thing to do as a first step is remove the air filter, spray some starting fluid in and see if it will fire. If it does, at least you know you have a fuel delivery prob and can go from there. Also a good idea to verify all wire harness connections. Open them, spray them out with contact cleaner, blow out with compressed air, and put dielectric grease in before reconnecting.
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/3/2018 3:46pm
2/3/2018 3:46pm
ok so update

got it to run today, back ground is has a vortex ign for sure, has pro circuit camshaft for sure, has high compression piston, a/m air box

bought a second hand complete throttle body and installed it and now it will fire up and idle a short time, maybe 20-30 seconds and will cut off on its own and fire right back up, also it will not take any throttle, it will shut right off.... the op I got the bike from said it had a larger injector in it but it looked just like the stock one I replaced it with....

so we checked timing and it doesn't line up like the past ones I have done, it appears like one mark is off from the other, so we moved it several times both ways and made it worse or wouldn't start at all, so we went back to the closest we could get it, which appears to be like a half a tooth off either way depending on the intake or exh side marks... it started and seemed to work the best with the mark on the exh side level with the cam tower and the int side slightly lower then the cam tower....

so now I am thinking that if the injector was truly a larger one or been redrilled or other wise modded then the vortex was prob mapped for it and wont run with a stock one????? that is what I am leaning towards.. unless there is a different way you are suppose to time the pc camshaft....

so I have replaced in this order, the fuel pump with no change, then changed a complete second hand throttle body with all sensors and injector in it
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 2/3/2018 7:11pm
2/3/2018 7:11pm
First off, if your cam timing is not spot on, you will need to replace the can chain as it is worn beyond it's limits.
I would also look at the fuel pump and filter as that seems to be an issue.

Paw Paw
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/3/2018 9:01pm
2/3/2018 9:01pm
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
First off, if your cam timing is not spot on, you will need to replace the can chain as it is worn beyond it's limits. I...
First off, if your cam timing is not spot on, you will need to replace the can chain as it is worn beyond it's limits.
I would also look at the fuel pump and filter as that seems to be an issue.

Paw Paw
replaced fuel pump first, good idea on the timing chain i will order up a oem one and try that

The Shop

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Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 2/4/2018 9:28am
2/4/2018 9:28am
Based on what you have written....You still have a fuel delivery issue as well as a cam chain issue. Check the fuel tank vent line. There also may be inline fuel filter screens that are dirty. Something is stopping fuel delivery.

Paw Paw
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/5/2018 11:01am
2/5/2018 11:01am
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
Based on what you have written....You still have a fuel delivery issue as well as a cam chain issue. Check the fuel tank vent line. There...
Based on what you have written....You still have a fuel delivery issue as well as a cam chain issue. Check the fuel tank vent line. There also may be inline fuel filter screens that are dirty. Something is stopping fuel delivery.

Paw Paw
i did cheap out and buy a fuel pump only off ebay, that was like 35.00 bucks, i guess i should see if i can find another known running bike to switch tanks with and see if the problem is stil present

and i agree it will run for like 15-20 seconds before shutting off, and will not take any throttle, i richened it up all the way with the vortex and seemed to make the problem worse, so went all the way lean on lo and was about the same.... best was at 5 which is stock at lo, and that wasnt best by far
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/10/2018 2:29pm
2/10/2018 2:29pm
Ok update. Still not running, but did try a fuel tank off a buddies bike and it still wouldn’t start. Still has a nasty kick back from the kicker and a mild pop or backfire from the exh.
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/11/2018 2:49pm
2/11/2018 2:49pm
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
Timing chain?

Paw Paw
Debating on ordering it and installing it. Will a half a tooth off make it not run? Or take fuel?
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 2/11/2018 5:30pm
2/11/2018 5:30pm
Remember that the cam runs at 1/2 the speed of the crank shaft and thus when the intake cam is retarded by the "I/2" tooth as described, the intake charge will be getting to the cylinder several degrees late and thus will cause a smaller fuel charge and reduced fuel compression and poor ignition. So, yes that little bit you see off at the cam is actually twice that off as it relates to the piston position in the combustion stroke of the engine and will cause the kicking back and hard starting you have written about. The cam timing is very critical and must be spot on. Close is not good enough.
Your post of 2/3/2018 indicated you were ordering an OEM cam chain unit at that time, but I can only guess that it did not happen.

Paw Paw
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/12/2018 10:03am
2/12/2018 10:03am
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
Remember that the cam runs at 1/2 the speed of the crank shaft and thus when the intake cam is retarded by the "I/2" tooth as...
Remember that the cam runs at 1/2 the speed of the crank shaft and thus when the intake cam is retarded by the "I/2" tooth as described, the intake charge will be getting to the cylinder several degrees late and thus will cause a smaller fuel charge and reduced fuel compression and poor ignition. So, yes that little bit you see off at the cam is actually twice that off as it relates to the piston position in the combustion stroke of the engine and will cause the kicking back and hard starting you have written about. The cam timing is very critical and must be spot on. Close is not good enough.
Your post of 2/3/2018 indicated you were ordering an OEM cam chain unit at that time, but I can only guess that it did not happen.

Paw Paw
ordered oem timing chain this morning, will get it installed hopefully thursday and will report back with findings
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/15/2018 4:16pm
2/15/2018 4:16pm
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
Remember that the cam runs at 1/2 the speed of the crank shaft and thus when the intake cam is retarded by the "I/2" tooth as...
Remember that the cam runs at 1/2 the speed of the crank shaft and thus when the intake cam is retarded by the "I/2" tooth as described, the intake charge will be getting to the cylinder several degrees late and thus will cause a smaller fuel charge and reduced fuel compression and poor ignition. So, yes that little bit you see off at the cam is actually twice that off as it relates to the piston position in the combustion stroke of the engine and will cause the kicking back and hard starting you have written about. The cam timing is very critical and must be spot on. Close is not good enough.
Your post of 2/3/2018 indicated you were ordering an OEM cam chain unit at that time, but I can only guess that it did not happen.

Paw Paw
Ok pawpaw. Brand new oem fuel pump tonight, new oem Timing chain which put the cam spot on with the marks. Was better but still won’t run. It has a vortex ecm. I tried different maps, and from taking away fuel to adding fuel. Doesn’t kick back at the kicker now and doesn’t pop thru the exh. But still won’t run, it will start and act like it’s chasing it’s tail trying to run and cuts off within a few seconds. Any ideas? My leg is broken and having my buddies kick it for me some limits my time far as trouble shooting with it. Basically all I have done is parts swap. But is starting to get expensive now. 100% positive it has fire while kicking, not sure if the spark is going away once it starts? Kill switch lights when kicking it. Any direction you can point me in I would appreciate it a ton.
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/15/2018 4:17pm
2/15/2018 4:17pm
Or other things to look for or how to check
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 2/15/2018 6:06pm
2/15/2018 6:06pm
It sounds like you are making progress.
Have you tried to remove and clean the injector? I would suggest the use of an ultra sound cleaner.

Paw Paw
Polishhammer 2/16/2018 3:27am
2/16/2018 3:27am
I'd check injector like paw said, I've had a flywheel go bad on rmz that would do weird stuff, is the stator weak? Did u try an oem camshaft? Sometimes the gear slips on the cam slightly and throws it off.
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/16/2018 5:01am
2/16/2018 5:01am
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
It sounds like you are making progress. Have you tried to remove and clean the injector? I would suggest the use of an ultra sound cleaner...
It sounds like you are making progress.
Have you tried to remove and clean the injector? I would suggest the use of an ultra sound cleaner.

Paw Paw
i havent tried cleaning the injector, i bought a complete used throttle body with injectors and sensors off of ebay, and installed it

i dont have a way to clean the injector, a new injector is like $90.00, not sure how much the injector cleaner tool cost compared to a new injector
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/16/2018 5:02am
2/16/2018 5:02am
Polishhammer wrote:
I'd check injector like paw said, I've had a flywheel go bad on rmz that would do weird stuff, is the stator weak? Did u try...
I'd check injector like paw said, I've had a flywheel go bad on rmz that would do weird stuff, is the stator weak? Did u try an oem camshaft? Sometimes the gear slips on the cam slightly and throws it off.
i dont have any of the stock parts, i wish i did... i ended up getting this bike the way it sits not running lol, has a ton of nice high end parts that are doing me no good lol
Polishhammer 2/16/2018 8:23am
2/16/2018 8:23am
I put a ported head and rhc cam on mine. I sold my low hr stock parts to mxdevon on here. Maybe he still has them . I sold them dirt cheap lol

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Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 2/16/2018 10:43am
2/16/2018 10:43am Edited Date/Time 2/16/2018 12:47pm
You can pick up the injector cleaning units at Harbor Freight for under $50.
I must state that after replacing the cam chain that it should run if all else is good. I suspect the replacement TB unit and the ECU units. I feel you are stating all the signs of a lean mixture. Both can be created by a faulty/dirty injector,
a very lean map in the ecu setup or fuel starvation.
It can also be caused by a faulty fuel pump, dirty fuel filter or plugged vent lines.
On your Vortex unit....Does it have the 3 fuel dials on the bottom as well as the 10x maps selector on the bottom of it?


Paw Paw
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/16/2018 12:50pm
2/16/2018 12:50pm
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
You can pick up the injector cleaning units at Harbor Freight for under $50. I must state that after replacing the cam chain that it should...
You can pick up the injector cleaning units at Harbor Freight for under $50.
I must state that after replacing the cam chain that it should run if all else is good. I suspect the replacement TB unit and the ECU units. I feel you are stating all the signs of a lean mixture. Both can be created by a faulty/dirty injector,
a very lean map in the ecu setup or fuel starvation.
It can also be caused by a faulty fuel pump, dirty fuel filter or plugged vent lines.
On your Vortex unit....Does it have the 3 fuel dials on the bottom as well as the 10x maps selector on the bottom of it?


Paw Paw
Fuel pump was oem Honda and just replaced last night. So that rules out the dirty filter as there isn’t anymore other then the intank one. The vent hose is removed from the gas cap currently. Though I haven’t checked to see if there is anything in the cap hole itself. Injector could indeed be the next step, the vortex allows fuel change from 2.5% richer or leaner per click and goes from 1-4 leaner and 6-0 richer. I have tried several maps on the bike and all seem to provide similar results. Screwing the yellow hot start knob in a few clicks seems to help to a point then gets reversed back to worse when you go to far. i feel like it’s about got to be something small and simple yet nothing has been so far. Plug was a little dirty, I don’t know if that would allow it to start but not run.

List of total engine mods are as following

Fresh top end with hi compression piston (not verified)
Vortex ecm
A/m air box
Full Yoshimura exh
Pro circuit camshaft


New parts installed
Honda fuel pump
Honda timing chain


Used parts
Complete throttle body off eBay from a seller that parts out bikes and had excellent feedback.
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 2/16/2018 6:31pm
2/16/2018 6:31pm
Can you locate a like OEM ECU to use as a test. I have no way of knowing the status of the Vortex unit, but changing the dials should be making a difference. Remember that is delivers the spark, the spark timing as well and controls the fuel delivery along with the TPS.

Paw Paw
mxdevon
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mxdevon 2/16/2018 11:43pm
2/16/2018 11:43pm
Polishhammer wrote:
I put a ported head and rhc cam on mine. I sold my low hr stock parts to mxdevon on here. Maybe he still has them...
I put a ported head and rhc cam on mine. I sold my low hr stock parts to mxdevon on here. Maybe he still has them . I sold them dirt cheap lol
I just happened to glance at this thread.....i do have the complete head and cam I bought from you still in the box you sent it to me in. I just had it as a spare, you did sell it to me dirt cheap!. Its in perfect condition and I'm glad to pass it along for what I've got into it if it's needed.
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/17/2018 4:07am
2/17/2018 4:07am
Polishhammer wrote:
I put a ported head and rhc cam on mine. I sold my low hr stock parts to mxdevon on here. Maybe he still has them...
I put a ported head and rhc cam on mine. I sold my low hr stock parts to mxdevon on here. Maybe he still has them . I sold them dirt cheap lol
mxdevon wrote:
I just happened to glance at this thread.....i do have the complete head and cam I bought from you still in the box you sent it...
I just happened to glance at this thread.....i do have the complete head and cam I bought from you still in the box you sent it to me in. I just had it as a spare, you did sell it to me dirt cheap!. Its in perfect condition and I'm glad to pass it along for what I've got into it if it's needed.
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up

my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms dont work on here for some reason anymore
mxdevon
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mxdevon 2/17/2018 8:14am
2/17/2018 8:14am
jonboy688 wrote:
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms...
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up

my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms dont work on here for some reason anymore
I believe I paid $400.... Polishhammer can confirm.
Everything from the cylinder up. head, valves, springs, cam etc. I think there's even a piston in there. Its all boxed up and ready to go. I'll include shipping if you went it. Let me know.
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/18/2018 3:48pm
2/18/2018 3:48pm
jonboy688 wrote:
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms...
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up

my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms dont work on here for some reason anymore
mxdevon wrote:
I believe I paid $400.... Polishhammer can confirm. Everything from the cylinder up. head, valves, springs, cam etc. I think there's even a piston in there...
I believe I paid $400.... Polishhammer can confirm.
Everything from the cylinder up. head, valves, springs, cam etc. I think there's even a piston in there. Its all boxed up and ready to go. I'll include shipping if you went it. Let me know.
Took it to a shop and suppose to hear the news tomorrow. If it ends up being valve related I will pick it up. Will know hopefully tomorrow.
Polishhammer 2/19/2018 4:36am
2/19/2018 4:36am
jonboy688 wrote:
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms...
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up

my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms dont work on here for some reason anymore
mxdevon wrote:
I believe I paid $400.... Polishhammer can confirm. Everything from the cylinder up. head, valves, springs, cam etc. I think there's even a piston in there...
I believe I paid $400.... Polishhammer can confirm.
Everything from the cylinder up. head, valves, springs, cam etc. I think there's even a piston in there. Its all boxed up and ready to go. I'll include shipping if you went it. Let me know.
Sounds about right. Those parts were low hours I think it was around 10hours on them. Good stuff!
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/20/2018 2:05pm
2/20/2018 2:05pm
well the shop said 100% it was a bad vortex, so i ordered a ecm today, crossing my fingers they weren't wrong, as it wasn't a cheap item... if this doesn't fix it i will prob part the thing out!
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/25/2018 2:31pm
2/25/2018 2:31pm
jonboy688 wrote:
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms...
how much? i really dont need the head but if its a good enough deal i might pick it up

my email is jonboy688@hotmail.com my pms dont work on here for some reason anymore
mxdevon wrote:
I believe I paid $400.... Polishhammer can confirm. Everything from the cylinder up. head, valves, springs, cam etc. I think there's even a piston in there...
I believe I paid $400.... Polishhammer can confirm.
Everything from the cylinder up. head, valves, springs, cam etc. I think there's even a piston in there. Its all boxed up and ready to go. I'll include shipping if you went it. Let me know.
https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Race-Shop,42/2014-crf450r-wont-start,130…

i will gladly give you that for the camshaft if you would let it go for that amount
jonboy688
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jonboy688 2/25/2018 2:36pm
2/25/2018 2:36pm
got my used 2014 model ecm yesterday, and installed it today and had a buddy come over to kick it for me, well the one i bought doesn't even attempt to fire the bike, and the light isn't flashing on the kill switch, so i stuck the vortex back on it and it tried to run again,and the light was flashing or lighting up while kicking the bike over.....

so two part question, first is the light suppose to light up and flash when kicking it over? and two the ecm for a 2014 work in a 2013? the part number is different, but everything else is the same, the stator, throttle body and wiring harness according to the seller and rockymout when i looked it up also

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