Something got too hot??

gharmon
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gharmon
Edited Date/Time 12/7/2018 3:45am
A couple months ago my son was racing his 2015 CRF250 and at some point a rock or something put a hole in the case and all the oil was lost. The thing overheated pretty bad.

We took the opportunity to do a full rebuild top and bottom end. We got it all back together and it will not crank.

My question is what electrical part it the most likely candidate to have suffered the heat stroke. We can spray ether into the intake and it will crank and run. This tell me it's a gas issue. We have swapped tanks from a known running bike so that eliminates the fuel pump. What should we try next?

Thanks,
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gharmon
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gharmon 10/2/2018 2:02pm
10/2/2018 2:02pm
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
Dirty fuel injector.

Paw Paw
You think it could be an injector that just happened to get dirty at same time the engine ran really hot? Are you thinking it got too hot and is maybe stuck closed or something? Just out of curiosity have you really ever seen an injector get so dirty it would completely shut down an engine? I don't have much experience with bikes but back when I used to work on a lot of cars (fords mostly) I just don't ever remember injectors causing many problems? Are bikes just worse?
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 10/2/2018 3:51pm
10/2/2018 3:51pm
Todays fuel will clog an injector when it set in as little as one week. I am thinking you bike was down at least that long waiting for the rebuild, so it could be dirty. The fact that it will run with the ether as indicates it is not getting fuel delivered to the engine. You already tried another tank and fuel pump, so....
Car injectors a bit different than bikes as they deliver more fuel through larger holes and thus clog much less, where as the bike injectors have very small holes and clog much easier. Yes I have seen them clog up.

Paw Paw
1
gharmon
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gharmon 10/3/2018 10:23am
10/3/2018 10:23am
I appreciate your response. Your help is much appreciated. We'll play with it this weekend and see what happens

The Shop

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MxMobster471 10/3/2018 8:21pm
10/3/2018 8:21pm Edited Date/Time 10/3/2018 8:22pm
Papaw thanks x2 on the help (op is my Pops, bike is mine). Here’s a video of the injector. Does this look like adequate output to you?
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 10/4/2018 7:11am
10/4/2018 7:11am
No, not really. It should be a very fine even spray pattern. Clean it and try again. Also see what the pattern looks like when you kick the bike over as if attempting to start it. This will check to see if voltage is getting to the injector.

Paw Paw
c0ncEpT
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c0ncEpT 10/4/2018 8:48am
10/4/2018 8:48am Edited Date/Time 10/4/2018 8:48am
Will it fire on ether? If so than it's a fuel delivery problem. If not it's an ignition problem.
MxMobster471 10/4/2018 8:57am
10/4/2018 8:57am
PawPaw - The bike actually does not open the injector when you try and kick it over. Would this lead us to believe it's a electrical component? If so, any suggestions on what you would check first?

Concept - It does fire and run when you feed it ether. We also believe it is fuel delivery. Trouble now is just finding out what's causing it.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
Paw Paw 271
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Paw Paw 271 10/4/2018 11:43am
10/4/2018 11:43am
Check your kill switch.
The engine does need for the injector to operate when kicking it over or it will not fire.
Question.... When you use the starter fluid and it starts, does it keep running as normal or does it die quickly?
If it dies quickly, then you need to look at the fuel pump.

Paw Paw
MxMobster471 10/4/2018 12:48pm
10/4/2018 12:48pm
Paw Paw 271 wrote:
Check your kill switch. The engine does need for the injector to operate when kicking it over or it will not fire. Question.... When you use...
Check your kill switch.
The engine does need for the injector to operate when kicking it over or it will not fire.
Question.... When you use the starter fluid and it starts, does it keep running as normal or does it die quickly?
If it dies quickly, then you need to look at the fuel pump.

Paw Paw
It will run so long as you spray it. If you cease spraying the ether the engine quickly dies.

As far as the fuel pump goes, we actually pulled the tank off a compatible bike that was fully functional and running and the issue persisted. Just so that we could rule out the fuel pump.
motox331
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motox331 10/4/2018 1:16pm
10/4/2018 1:16pm
tip over sensor? Ignition relays in working order?
MxMobster471 10/4/2018 2:05pm
10/4/2018 2:05pm
motox331 wrote:
tip over sensor? Ignition relays in working order?
Would you happen to know where the tip over sensor is located?

Also, if the ignition had any issues it would cause the bike not to start at all, Right?

Excuse my ignorance and thanks for your response!
kb228
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kb228 10/4/2018 2:44pm
10/4/2018 2:44pm
Might want to hook the bike up to a battery and see if you have power to your injector. If not its likely a harness or ecu issue.
1
MxMobster471 10/5/2018 9:03am
10/5/2018 9:03am
kb228 wrote:
Might want to hook the bike up to a battery and see if you have power to your injector. If not its likely a harness or...
Might want to hook the bike up to a battery and see if you have power to your injector. If not its likely a harness or ecu issue.
KB,

Thanks for your reply. I assume you mean applying the battery to the ECU and making sure the voltage is traveling through the entire harness. How would you advise I do this? If I have an Achilles heel it is definitely in the electronic category.

Thanks guys.
kb228
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kb228 10/5/2018 9:14am
10/5/2018 9:14am
kb228 wrote:
Might want to hook the bike up to a battery and see if you have power to your injector. If not its likely a harness or...
Might want to hook the bike up to a battery and see if you have power to your injector. If not its likely a harness or ecu issue.
MxMobster471 wrote:
KB, Thanks for your reply. I assume you mean applying the battery to the ECU and making sure the voltage is traveling through the entire harness...
KB,

Thanks for your reply. I assume you mean applying the battery to the ECU and making sure the voltage is traveling through the entire harness. How would you advise I do this? If I have an Achilles heel it is definitely in the electronic category.

Thanks guys.
Im not sure on your honda. On my kawi you replace the capacitor with a battery to charge the system. Youd have to look in your manual. Honestly it would be easier for you to have a dealer hook it up to a computer to see.
MxMobster471 10/5/2018 10:59am
10/5/2018 10:59am
kb228 wrote:
Might want to hook the bike up to a battery and see if you have power to your injector. If not its likely a harness or...
Might want to hook the bike up to a battery and see if you have power to your injector. If not its likely a harness or ecu issue.
MxMobster471 wrote:
KB, Thanks for your reply. I assume you mean applying the battery to the ECU and making sure the voltage is traveling through the entire harness...
KB,

Thanks for your reply. I assume you mean applying the battery to the ECU and making sure the voltage is traveling through the entire harness. How would you advise I do this? If I have an Achilles heel it is definitely in the electronic category.

Thanks guys.
kb228 wrote:
Im not sure on your honda. On my kawi you replace the capacitor with a battery to charge the system. Youd have to look in your...
Im not sure on your honda. On my kawi you replace the capacitor with a battery to charge the system. Youd have to look in your manual. Honestly it would be easier for you to have a dealer hook it up to a computer to see.
So I should be able to take this to my local Honda shop and have them hook it up and they can diagnose what electrical component needs replacing, if any?

Pit Row

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GoYamaha
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GoYamaha 10/5/2018 1:05pm
10/5/2018 1:05pm
Your local dealer (honda) can plug your bike into their computer using Honda Software and can fire the injectors and also your fuel pump. They can do a fuel system diagnostic on their computer really easily.
GoYamaha
kb228
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kb228 10/5/2018 2:48pm
10/5/2018 2:48pm
MxMobster471 wrote:
KB, Thanks for your reply. I assume you mean applying the battery to the ECU and making sure the voltage is traveling through the entire harness...
KB,

Thanks for your reply. I assume you mean applying the battery to the ECU and making sure the voltage is traveling through the entire harness. How would you advise I do this? If I have an Achilles heel it is definitely in the electronic category.

Thanks guys.
kb228 wrote:
Im not sure on your honda. On my kawi you replace the capacitor with a battery to charge the system. Youd have to look in your...
Im not sure on your honda. On my kawi you replace the capacitor with a battery to charge the system. Youd have to look in your manual. Honestly it would be easier for you to have a dealer hook it up to a computer to see.
MxMobster471 wrote:
So I should be able to take this to my local Honda shop and have them hook it up and they can diagnose what electrical component...
So I should be able to take this to my local Honda shop and have them hook it up and they can diagnose what electrical component needs replacing, if any?
Yea. They literallly can plug into your ecu and see all the voltages and whether or not your injector and pump are working. Sometimes it wont catch everything. Like on my kawi 450, they missed a bad coolant temp sensor. But for your specific issue they should be able to see if youre getting power to your injector.
gharmon
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gharmon 10/20/2018 2:35am
10/20/2018 2:35am
kb228 wrote:
Im not sure on your honda. On my kawi you replace the capacitor with a battery to charge the system. Youd have to look in your...
Im not sure on your honda. On my kawi you replace the capacitor with a battery to charge the system. Youd have to look in your manual. Honestly it would be easier for you to have a dealer hook it up to a computer to see.
MxMobster471 wrote:
So I should be able to take this to my local Honda shop and have them hook it up and they can diagnose what electrical component...
So I should be able to take this to my local Honda shop and have them hook it up and they can diagnose what electrical component needs replacing, if any?
kb228 wrote:
Yea. They literallly can plug into your ecu and see all the voltages and whether or not your injector and pump are working. Sometimes it wont...
Yea. They literallly can plug into your ecu and see all the voltages and whether or not your injector and pump are working. Sometimes it wont catch everything. Like on my kawi 450, they missed a bad coolant temp sensor. But for your specific issue they should be able to see if youre getting power to your injector.
Our local dealer said it was not quite that simple. He said they could hook it up to their machine and it might give a direction in where to lean but he said it would then require more time diagnosing the exact part. Time=money. and at like $80/hr that can get out of hand quickly.

I have a quick questions. If I stick a volt meter into the business in of the injector plug-in would/should it show up on the volt meter. I know it would be a quick movement as you only get the power generated from the kick. And to check it would I just stick both ends of the volt meter in to either wire on the plug-in? Like the black lead into one hole and the red lead into the other side or do you stick the back to ground and then the red into the "hot" side? Like I said wiring is not a strong point of mine. We have a race next weekend and would like to get the bike running.

What all parts can actually affect just the injector spaying gas in the throttle body.?

fuel pump
injector,
ecu
??

Thanks guys

Gerald
kb228
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kb228 10/20/2018 6:27am
10/20/2018 6:27am
You typically power the system with a 12v battery. Then yes, touch your multimeter leads to the corresponding terminals in the plug. Your service manual should have details on that on how exactly to do it.
gharmon
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gharmon 10/20/2018 11:26am
10/20/2018 11:26am
kb228 wrote:
You typically power the system with a 12v battery. Then yes, touch your multimeter leads to the corresponding terminals in the plug. Your service manual should...
You typically power the system with a 12v battery. Then yes, touch your multimeter leads to the corresponding terminals in the plug. Your service manual should have details on that on how exactly to do it.
Anyone know how to hook up a batter to power the system? I can power one thing at a time like the injector or fuel pump but unsure where to hook up the battery to supply constant system power?
MxMobster471 10/31/2018 5:09pm
10/31/2018 5:09pm
Here is an update:

We replaced the fuel pump with one of those quantum pumps and put in a new OEM injector. This was a swing and a miss but probably needed changing considering the age.

We also tested a functional condenser and rectifier. These were also a failed attempt.

At this point we are considering buying a new ECU or wiring harness (probably both). That is about all we can think of. Before we do that, is there anyway the stator just doesn't generate enough voltage to make the fuel pump and injector operate? I guess we assumed that if the stator is bad it's... well.. bad..Not halfway bad.. Any suggestions?

As always, thanks everyone.

Lasse
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Lasse 11/1/2018 4:03am
11/1/2018 4:03am
If a bad stator is suspected, you can replace that with a battery for test purposes.

Are all the parts that need a solid ground grounded?

Does the sparkplug get wet from all the kicking? Do you have spark? First the essentials need to be tested.
kb228
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kb228 11/1/2018 5:24am
11/1/2018 5:24am
If you think the stator isnt making power you can hook up a 12v battery to the bike and run it. You can also check it for shorts within itself too.
MxMobster471 11/1/2018 8:53am
11/1/2018 8:53am
Lasse - The bike has spark. It fires when you spray ether in it. Also passes spark test.

KB - Thank for the input. We know that the stator works to some degree considering it starts up with ether.

My question is: Does a stator ever lose SOME power or are they either good or bad? Seems like either the ECU is bad or the voltage generating from the stator isn't high enough to operate the Pump/Injector.
kb228
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kb228 11/1/2018 9:04am
11/1/2018 9:04am
Yes it can lose power. Usually thats from a weak magneto though. Not the stator itself. Heat kills those magnetos. Might just be what happened.

You can test output voltage of the stator to see. Or find a $30 magneto off ebay and give it a shot.
gharmon
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gharmon 11/7/2018 7:40pm
11/7/2018 7:40pm
kb228 wrote:
Yes it can lose power. Usually thats from a weak magneto though. Not the stator itself. Heat kills those magnetos. Might just be what happened. You...
Yes it can lose power. Usually thats from a weak magneto though. Not the stator itself. Heat kills those magnetos. Might just be what happened.

You can test output voltage of the stator to see. Or find a $30 magneto off ebay and give it a shot.
When you say magneto what are your referring to? Those two CPK's that function with the stator? Not sure what you are talking about.

I tried messing with this evening. We know it's a fuel problem. We now know it's not the fuel pump, injector, condensor or rectifier. I was using my volt meter to today along with the manual. Granted I am not good with electrical stuff at all.
I test the kill switch and it's fine (someone had mentioned it). I think attempted to test the stator. upon checking the resistance of the stator with the white and yellow wires I got a resistance of 0.01 ohms. My question is did I do it right.
The range is .0.1-3.0. So a tenth to three. I how a one-hundredth on mine.

I am going to put a couple with and someone tell me if I had it set right. If so, does this seem to be my problem. Remember this engine was ran hot (very hot).
Thanks for the help guys.


therealmclovin 11/9/2018 8:45am
11/9/2018 8:45am
a buddy of mine had the same thing happen to him it turns out his timing was off fixed his timing and the bike started right up. good luck

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