Seely's suspension, is it an air shock?

ML512
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10/2/2017 7:03am
PRM31 wrote:
Is this design the same as a production bike?
Not quite, the production Showa shock has a slightly different retaining clip system.
David934
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10/2/2017 7:17am
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail. That’s about all we got.
kkawboy14
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10/2/2017 7:20am
David934 wrote:
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was...
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail. That’s about all we got.
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
NJKawi913
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10/2/2017 7:22am
It sucks for team USA and i'm sure eveyrone at honda is pissed about it. However HRC has to be glad it was at the des nations, rather than monster cup, or A1.

also, with on going on what we are hears about the issue, and not having 100% certainty about the equipment on seelys bikes. Has anyone else encountered this in muddy conditions? I know it is hard to keep mud from really caking up on the bikes, and wd-40/silicon sprays only go so far.

The Shop

David934
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10/2/2017 7:23am
David934 wrote:
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was...
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail. That’s about all we got.
kkawboy14 wrote:
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
All bikes were heavy there
10/2/2017 7:25am
David934 wrote:
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was...
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail. That’s about all we got.
kkawboy14 wrote:
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
Gajser and Seely have very different motorcycles.
ML512
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10/2/2017 7:30am
Gajser and Seely have very different motorcycles.
Shock suppliers...different spring retaining systems. Showa uses a retaining clip and groove...while KYB uses a slotted collar.
kkawboy14
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10/2/2017 7:32am
David934 wrote:
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was...
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail. That’s about all we got.
kkawboy14 wrote:
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
David934 wrote:
All bikes were heavy there
Exactly......and how many shocks broke? 2?
TeamGreen
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10/2/2017 7:36am
TeamGreen wrote:
I'm still wondering if the linkage/linkage bolts failed..?
wfo4ever wrote:
I thought the same thing when I saw his bike on the track. Some kind of linkage failure. We will probably never really know. That stuff...
I thought the same thing when I saw his bike on the track. Some kind of linkage failure. We will probably never really know. That stuff is top secret.
philG wrote:
I told you already, the retaining wire /clip for the Spring platform Broke/fell off... that's live on the ground news , not a sat on the...
I told you already, the retaining wire /clip for the Spring platform Broke/fell off... that's live on the ground news , not a sat on the sofa guess.
Hey, Phil...

Are you positive that you're always being told EXACTLY what happens?

That's the point.

mx_phreek
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10/2/2017 7:38am
One good thing will come out of it for them is they know it's a part to be modified for future reference so it won't happen again.
philG
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10/2/2017 7:43am
TeamGreen wrote:
Hey, Phil...

Are you positive that you're always being told EXACTLY what happens?

That's the point.

When I am, told by someone I know, that knows , yes.

RangerLee
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10/2/2017 8:00am
What makes this really stand out is this one Honda is the only bike this happened too, and it happened twice. If this honda is the only one using the clip, then it is nuts it took until this race to realize how much of a weak link it is. As stated before, good thing it did not happen on a more treacherous part of the course, imagine being 30feet in the air, or launching off the face of one of the larger jumps as it breaks off?

If this exact same set up is on the production bikes, I imagine there may be a good chance of a recall coming. Still, there have to be other 2018 Honda's out there and every one of them were running different suspension than Seely?
ML512
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10/2/2017 8:20am
RangerLee wrote:
What makes this really stand out is this one Honda is the only bike this happened too, and it happened twice. If this honda is the...
What makes this really stand out is this one Honda is the only bike this happened too, and it happened twice. If this honda is the only one using the clip, then it is nuts it took until this race to realize how much of a weak link it is. As stated before, good thing it did not happen on a more treacherous part of the course, imagine being 30feet in the air, or launching off the face of one of the larger jumps as it breaks off?

If this exact same set up is on the production bikes, I imagine there may be a good chance of a recall coming. Still, there have to be other 2018 Honda's out there and every one of them were running different suspension than Seely?
The style of retaining system the KYB shock uses compared to the Showa is different.

It's the same style retaining system that KYB uses on nearly all their moto-shocks. It comes down to a unique set of circumstances surrounding that bike, linkage, clevis height, etc. They'll change it to suit this bike.

There were plenty of other Hondas on track that didn't face the same problem due to the retaining system on the Showa shock and there were a ton of teams on KYB shocks using that retaining system and they didn't have problems due to the layout, where the mud could build up, etc.
GPrider
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10/2/2017 8:25am
it's amazing to me that so many think its a Honda issue. The shock was provided by a shock company. Sounds like the shock company failed, not the bike. Its that simple. Maybe Seeley was able to run something different than usual? Maybe different rules allowed a new shock location which allowed him to run a different shock? IDK, but if the retainer failed its on the shock supplier. If a new tire design from Dunlop came apart two motos in a row is that Hondas fault too?
86honda
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10/2/2017 8:30am
If you need an excuse cause we didnt have a great crew. "Yea lets wreck the rear spring"
BobPA
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10/2/2017 8:35am
Too bad we will never actually know. I have worked on a number of KYB shocks throughout the years, I am having a difficult time believing their spring retention system failed. But, it must be so.... PhilG is preaching his opinion like it is the law.
deluxeman
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10/2/2017 9:22am
The only really bad thing about this is HRC cant claim it was an electrical issue. Nothing mechanical ever breaks on a Honda. Gutted for Seeley he was running good in the 2nd moto
philG
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10/2/2017 9:29am
BobPA wrote:
Too bad we will never actually know. I have worked on a number of KYB shocks throughout the years, I am having a difficult time believing...
Too bad we will never actually know. I have worked on a number of KYB shocks throughout the years, I am having a difficult time believing their spring retention system failed. But, it must be so.... PhilG is preaching his opinion like it is the law.
Worked on or manufactured?

World of difference , i spent over $100,000 budget on kit to check dampers, thats just dimensional stuff, for all the parts , bodies , shafts, internals, shim, and multi piston damping system parts.

You probably have a difficult time believing a lot of stuff .

Hey , im sorry i was at the race and close enough to people that know..

philG
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10/2/2017 9:45am Edited Date/Time 10/2/2017 9:53am
ML512 wrote:
The style of retaining system the KYB shock uses compared to the Showa is different. It's the same style retaining system that KYB uses on nearly...
The style of retaining system the KYB shock uses compared to the Showa is different.

It's the same style retaining system that KYB uses on nearly all their moto-shocks. It comes down to a unique set of circumstances surrounding that bike, linkage, clevis height, etc. They'll change it to suit this bike.

There were plenty of other Hondas on track that didn't face the same problem due to the retaining system on the Showa shock and there were a ton of teams on KYB shocks using that retaining system and they didn't have problems due to the layout, where the mud could build up, etc.
Seelys bike did look low in the rear, even when it was going, i know that for ultra rough Rallies, we used to use what was effectively a metal cable tie, to attach the spring platform to the spring , to stop everything going awry when the suspension was at full droop when the car was in the air.

Without seeing a diagram of the parts , im summising that its similar to other stuff, but there arent many ways to do it.

EDIT..

Just seen some pics of the Factory KYB, and yes , its the split collar , it looks really deep though , you could pack some mud in there for sure.
RangerLee
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10/2/2017 9:56am
I really appreciate this discussion and Phil's observations from what was seen and the people he has spoken to. I am not saying it is Hondas that are the problem, as there were plenty of other Honda's out there. Hence my comment that it was interesting that it was only this ONE bike that had the issue. Was it the only bike out there using the same clip for retention, with so many bikes using every brand of suspension out there it would seem others would have had the same shock set up. Yet they did not fail in this manner. Perhaps Seely just rode harder than those other ones which contributed to more mud getting caked on, harder hits and then what we saw.

philG
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10/2/2017 10:24am
RangerLee wrote:
I really appreciate this discussion and Phil's observations from what was seen and the people he has spoken to. I am not saying it is Hondas...
I really appreciate this discussion and Phil's observations from what was seen and the people he has spoken to. I am not saying it is Hondas that are the problem, as there were plenty of other Honda's out there. Hence my comment that it was interesting that it was only this ONE bike that had the issue. Was it the only bike out there using the same clip for retention, with so many bikes using every brand of suspension out there it would seem others would have had the same shock set up. Yet they did not fail in this manner. Perhaps Seely just rode harder than those other ones which contributed to more mud getting caked on, harder hits and then what we saw.

There is little the rider could do to make this happen, or to stop it. I will see if i can dig anything else up, but i doubt it now.
mark911
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10/2/2017 10:26am
I suspect a couple of things. 1) The spring he ran was close to coil binding to start with. Add in some mud between coils and you have a condition that'll blow out any retaining system. 2) Some riders today are running little if not any preload to the point that the shock rattles between the perches. This can beat the heck out of a retainer. 3)combination of 1&2. I'm surprised that after the first failure they couldn't remedy the situation.
BobPA
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10/2/2017 10:28am
BobPA wrote:
Too bad we will never actually know. I have worked on a number of KYB shocks throughout the years, I am having a difficult time believing...
Too bad we will never actually know. I have worked on a number of KYB shocks throughout the years, I am having a difficult time believing their spring retention system failed. But, it must be so.... PhilG is preaching his opinion like it is the law.
philG wrote:
Worked on or manufactured? World of difference , i spent over $100,000 budget on kit to check dampers, thats just dimensional stuff, for all the parts...
Worked on or manufactured?

World of difference , i spent over $100,000 budget on kit to check dampers, thats just dimensional stuff, for all the parts , bodies , shafts, internals, shim, and multi piston damping system parts.

You probably have a difficult time believing a lot of stuff .

Hey , im sorry i was at the race and close enough to people that know..

Congrats on spending money. I spent $2k on my TV...Does not make me an expert by any means. (You see where I am going here)

You were first stating your claim that the retaining clip failed. ML then pointed out they do not even use a retaining ring system on KYB shocks. Seeing that I have WORKED on KYB shocks in the past, I understand how their collar system opertates. Why would I have to manufacture a shock to understand a simple mechanical design?

Watch this and enlighten me as to what failed, oh great internet douche nozzle.

https://youtu.be/wLZLcElWb7E
MX Guy
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10/2/2017 10:32am
Something's fishy about all of this
Robgvx
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10/2/2017 10:41am Edited Date/Time 10/4/2017 1:03am
Here's what happened.

The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a stone got forced into the split/opening in the spring collar, forcing it to either break or bend, (I didn't clarify that). The collar came out so the spring just slid down to the linkage. Hence the partial collapse.

Freak incident, which unfortunately happened twice.

Seeley used his own suspension (Kayaba). Different to the stuff the GP guys run.

That's my understanding.
philG
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10/2/2017 12:26pm
mark911 wrote:
I suspect a couple of things. 1) The spring he ran was close to coil binding to start with. Add in some mud between coils and...
I suspect a couple of things. 1) The spring he ran was close to coil binding to start with. Add in some mud between coils and you have a condition that'll blow out any retaining system. 2) Some riders today are running little if not any preload to the point that the shock rattles between the perches. This can beat the heck out of a retainer. 3)combination of 1&2. I'm surprised that after the first failure they couldn't remedy the situation.
I was thinking the amount of preload is a factor, i havent seen spring rattling,but i have seen guys turning springs by hand to increase preload which says they arent loaded much, and the trend of running a harder spring with less preload does seem to be more in fashion.
philG
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10/2/2017 12:43pm
Robgvx wrote:
Here's what happened. The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a...
Here's what happened.

The mud was very heavy, and there were stones in it. The mud got packed around the bottom of the shock/link and a stone got forced into the split/opening in the spring collar, forcing it to either break or bend, (I didn't clarify that). The collar came out so the spring just slid down to the linkage. Hence the partial collapse.

Freak incident, which unfortunately happened twice.

Seeley used his own suspension (Kayaba). Different to the stuff the GP guys run.

That's my understanding.
The info i received used the word 'clip' not collar.. seeing the shock, and pics as i did when i finally got home, that makes a lot more sense. I have to say , looking at the above pic, i thought , as ML512 did, that it had the wire retainer, which would have failed sooner for the same reason.

Glad you put it to bed.
kiwifan
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10/2/2017 12:58pm
David934 wrote:
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was...
Matthes said: Honda was tight-lipped about the situation, but we learned it was indeed the same issue with the shock in both motos and it was due to the weight of the mud on the machine causing a part to fail. That’s about all we got.
kkawboy14 wrote:
No way it has to do with the weight of the mud. Gasjers bike was fine.
they use a different shock

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