How can(could) the Japanese manufacturers just hand over the market to KTM?

str8line
Posts
3660
Joined
9/20/2018
Location
Sandy, UT US
Edited Date/Time 5/31/2020 11:49am
The 350 thread got me thinking about how popular 350's and 300 2-strokes are in the offroad market and how not one of the red, blue, green and yellow even offer them. KTM, Husky, even Beta continue to grow in popularity while the Japanese sleep.
21
6
|
GoldenKTM
Posts
165
Joined
1/29/2017
Location
WI US
5/29/2020 5:35pm
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
4
7
Brent
Posts
5308
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Party in Temecula, CA US
5/29/2020 6:38pm Edited Date/Time 5/29/2020 6:39pm
...KTM/Husky is run by racers with a passion for what they do.

The Japanese brands are run by accountants and advertising execs.

Japanese engineers are only allowed to design what their bosses tell them to design, and only under a certain budget.

DeCoster still goes in every day to the shop in Murrieta and tries to make his motorcycles better, when he could be retired. He loves what he does.

I doubt if any Japanese brand has anyone with that fire inside...


44
5

The Shop

TeamGreen
Posts
29116
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
5/29/2020 6:49pm
Passion at the Top

As a company, you either have it or you don’t
26
user760a
Posts
1140
Joined
9/15/2008
Location
Shelby, NC US
5/29/2020 6:52pm
I had been asking myself this same question for several years , but lately I just dont care what they do. These are companies who are going to continue playing their little game of follow the leader while KTM and other euro brands take off. screw 'em. my next new bike will be a KTM 350XC....there are tons of them at the races (off road races)

There are probably more 350XC models at any given off road race in my are than all honda and suzuki models combined
13
2
JB 19
Posts
4205
Joined
3/8/2009
Location
Marion, OH US
5/29/2020 6:56pm
GoldenKTM wrote:
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in...
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.
23
1
Janko630
Posts
95
Joined
7/16/2018
Location
IL US
5/29/2020 7:05pm
DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.
1
9
5/29/2020 7:06pm
JB 19 wrote:
Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.
I think he meant off road in a broader sense, encompassing everything not street legal.
BMSOBx2
Posts
2088
Joined
2/18/2017
Location
Antioch, CA US
5/29/2020 7:08pm Edited Date/Time 5/29/2020 7:09pm
GoldenKTM wrote:
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in...
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says a lot about the state of the sport in this country and indeed in much of the world. There's more money in making mopeds for Malaysia and India and China than there is for developing motocross bikes for a relatively small market. Sad but true.
4
1
Helda3
Posts
86
Joined
2/20/2020
Location
AU
5/29/2020 8:00pm
Janko630 wrote:
DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.
Really? Whats the story behind this?
3
kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
5/29/2020 8:31pm
GoldenKTM wrote:
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in...
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
BMSOBx2 wrote:
Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says...
Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says a lot about the state of the sport in this country and indeed in much of the world. There's more money in making mopeds for Malaysia and India and China than there is for developing motocross bikes for a relatively small market. Sad but true.
I 100% agree, ROI is key...like it or not.

The Japanese manufacturers do not need to invest money in R&D, tooling lines, manufacturing lines, etc etc for new models when they would struggle to get a decent enough market share to make it worthwhile. They make enough money from other areas of their business.

And IF they did then it would hurt KTM/Husky/Beta/Sherco/Gas Gas sales ....does the non-Japanese rider want the Japanese to produce bikes to compete with them, heck no, that could (I said could!) mean the end of their brand...especially because that is the biggest income for those brands (KTM/Husky do produce some road bikes but no where near the volume of the other brands or biggest sellers).
2
1
wrc777
Posts
2213
Joined
5/21/2020
Location
Greenwood, IN US
Fantasy
587th
5/29/2020 8:39pm
Local shop is sold out of 2020 Hondas. There are 2019 ktms still sitting on the floor though.
8
1
5/29/2020 9:17pm
Janko630 wrote:
DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.
Yeah, you’re right, Roger de Coster has no passion for motocross, he’s only driven by money. /sarc
8
1
Motofinne
Posts
10691
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
FI
5/29/2020 10:24pm
GoldenKTM wrote:
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in...
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
JB 19 wrote:
Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.
Isn't the 250 or 300 2-stroke TPI KTMs most sold bike globally?
1
5/29/2020 11:56pm
Janko630 wrote:
DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.
That was the GFC dick, a lot of us are still working due to this.
No need to dirty Greg's name.
4
MZ193
Posts
938
Joined
12/14/2018
Location
IT
5/30/2020 12:20am
Janko630 wrote:
DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.
That was the GFC dick, a lot of us are still working due to this.
No need to dirty Greg's name.
What's the back story? Curious.
1
KX500
Posts
283
Joined
8/30/2018
Location
Chester, IL US
5/30/2020 5:54am
Pretty sure we'll Never see a new 2 stroke from Japan. Supercross and Motocross get all of the publicity and what bikes does that sell?

Yes, 4 stroke MX bikes just like Japan wants. As good as these bikes are, Japan figures they are the best bet, no matter what you want to do with it. And of course 'Best' can mean best for the manufacturers in increased cost of ownership (maybe?).

I have had so much fun on CR and YZ250s (2T) in my life, I can't help but be a fan of Honda & Yamaha.

But I never cared for Honda's anti 2 stroke philosophy.

And how hard would it be for Yamaha to put out a YZ300 - a direct competitor for the KTM/Husky 300? Yes, it would take some development, but then they sell it for the next 20 years, with no changes - and it still sells, while development costs were paid for in 1st year, most likely.

With no new SX/MX to watch, I've been watching the Hard Enduro series on YouTube.

Very entertaining. Also completely devoid of 4 strokes/any bikes from Japan. So completely dominated by KTM/Husky. But also fun to see the Shercos, Gas Gas & Betas occasionally in the mix.

So how can I not be a big fan of KTM & Husky too - just for the bikes they offer, if nothing else?



5
Tuna
Posts
1582
Joined
4/3/2017
Location
CA
5/30/2020 6:17am
GoldenKTM wrote:
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in...
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
JB 19 wrote:
Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.
Motofinne wrote:
Isn't the 250 or 300 2-stroke TPI KTMs most sold bike globally?
I thought the 350 was.
1
GoldenKTM
Posts
165
Joined
1/29/2017
Location
WI US
5/30/2020 7:50am
JB 19 wrote:
Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.
I believe that motocross bikes, cross country bikes and trail bikes are all considered “off-road” motorcycles and have the same bucket of money at a higher level.
kage173
Posts
2184
Joined
11/27/2015
Location
TX US
5/30/2020 7:52am
When you walk into a Yamaha dealership, what do you see? Street bikes, wave runners, side by sides and quads. Then over in the corner you see ttrs and a couple of wrs. Then finally you see the yz. The moto x bikes are tip of the spear for branding. KTM is tiny vs the Japanese so they segmented the market for hardcore enthusiasts and focus on offroad dirtbikes. The Japanes haven't given up anything, they make their $ on a broader consumer market that has bigger wallets and less knowledge about what they are buying.
11
1
5/30/2020 8:05am
kage173 wrote:
When you walk into a Yamaha dealership, what do you see? Street bikes, wave runners, side by sides and quads. Then over in the corner you...
When you walk into a Yamaha dealership, what do you see? Street bikes, wave runners, side by sides and quads. Then over in the corner you see ttrs and a couple of wrs. Then finally you see the yz. The moto x bikes are tip of the spear for branding. KTM is tiny vs the Japanese so they segmented the market for hardcore enthusiasts and focus on offroad dirtbikes. The Japanes haven't given up anything, they make their $ on a broader consumer market that has bigger wallets and less knowledge about what they are buying.
Yes....this
1
gt80rider
Posts
6275
Joined
4/19/2008
Location
Boulder, CO US
5/30/2020 8:12am
MZ193 wrote:
What's the back story? Curious.
Albee was on a podcast and talked about it a bit... Albee lost his shirt too.... And while the man lost some money, I doubt it was his entire nut....
Falcon
Posts
10129
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA US
Fantasy
856th
5/30/2020 8:20am
GoldenKTM wrote:
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in...
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
JB 19 wrote:
Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.
You are right... Probably double or triple the size of moto. So, off-road is potentially 3% of their sales, instead of only one percent. 👍
1
Crush
Posts
20962
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
5/30/2020 8:21am
This is as close to a 350 Kawi you're going to get for now [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/05/29/430074/s1200_c93f73ee25c7788c21f2f8bb6ef7e3cd.jpg[/img]
This is as close to a 350 Kawi you're going to get for now
Damn that is pretty!
2
-MAVERICK-
Posts
50614
Joined
3/26/2015
Location
Ontario CA
Fantasy
3739th
5/30/2020 8:25am
MZ193 wrote:
What's the back story? Curious.
gt80rider wrote:
Albee was on a podcast and talked about it a bit... Albee lost his shirt too.... And while the man lost some money, I doubt it...
Albee was on a podcast and talked about it a bit... Albee lost his shirt too.... And while the man lost some money, I doubt it was his entire nut....
For anyone interested, press play:

4
TbonesPop
Posts
3469
Joined
1/26/2010
Location
Gilbert, AZ US
Fantasy
321st
5/30/2020 8:40am
I'd bet pretty good money that people in the Japanese manufacturers have all looked at the 350F concept from a market evaluation perspective. My money is on the ROI just isn't there for them as they see it as a very niche' product. Its a very small % of bikes in a small market segment. I do like the idea and the power of the 350 as probably the best platform for most non-pro riders, especially vet riders like myself. I often tell myself that if Yamaha made a YZ350F, I'd go buy one for sure. Then I remind myself how easy it is for me to just de-tune and tone down my '18 YZ450F by using different gearing and the mobile app for mapping. So why produce a 350 machine, when its really easy to just set up my YZ450F to be like a 350F? But if I want to have the extra power for some desert riding, all I have to do is login on my app and in about 60 seconds (or less), I'm back on a YZ450F. Hell, it takes me longer to put gas in the bike than it does to change a map setting. It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective. So the Japanese manufacturers just let KTM/Husky be what they are and have that market.
2
1
JustMX
Posts
4623
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
5/30/2020 8:42am Edited Date/Time 5/31/2020 4:09am
GoldenKTM wrote:
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in...
If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.
BMSOBx2 wrote:
Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says...
Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says a lot about the state of the sport in this country and indeed in much of the world. There's more money in making mopeds for Malaysia and India and China than there is for developing motocross bikes for a relatively small market. Sad but true.
Motocross bikes are buggy whips

Larry the liguidator's buggy whip analogy
1
Johnny Depp
Posts
6438
Joined
10/16/2014
Location
Buda, TX US
5/30/2020 9:10am
Janko630 wrote:
DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.
Helda3 wrote:
Really? Whats the story behind this?
EVERYBODY mostly lost their ass in '08. Not news.
1

Post a reply to: How can(could) the Japanese manufacturers just hand over the market to KTM?

The Latest