The death of our sport

doghouse
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3/14/2018 1:24pm
Titan1 wrote:
I hear ya on that...I can't stand that attitude either, I hate it... One benefit of racing offroad stuff is there isn't much of that at...
I hear ya on that...I can't stand that attitude either, I hate it...

One benefit of racing offroad stuff is there isn't much of that at all...occasionally a moto bro will show up thinking off road is easy and for people too slow to race moto...but they don't usually last too long and pull out of the race half way because they are tired of getting passed all afternoon...usually with some stupid excuse "bike wasn't running right" or something stupid like "F that dust man...this is why I race moto".

Everyone in offroad knows there isn't a future in it (money wise...only a small small handful of guys get a paycheck to race off road-such that they don't have to have another job)...and that changes the attitude with which we participate...we're there for fun...so we help each other...look out for each other...and it don't matter if you show up on a 15 year old two stroke or the Rockstar Edition Husky 450...
Yeah, I dig the offroad community a lot. They are doing a lot right, and the participation speaks for itself. I actually started in offroad as a kid before getting more into motocross.

mattyhamz2
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3/14/2018 1:25pm
doghouse wrote:
If you want to get into the reasons I don't race much anymore, it's the culture really. When I say because of the 10k four strokes...
If you want to get into the reasons I don't race much anymore, it's the culture really. When I say because of the 10k four strokes, it's not because the cost of the bike, or the fact they are four stroke, it's the keeping up with the Jones' need an RV Monster Energy Bro gotta have the latest gear only want tracks with 120' triples gonna be the next supercross all star attitude from everyone from dad's to kids. It's killing the sport, and by which I mean the real average joe who just wants to have fun, which is the real sport, not the SX you watch on TV. There's other factors for me as well, like distance and such, but those wouldn't stop me if it wasn't for the general culture. The manufacturers pushing these hyper complicated expensive bikes while using their clout to crowd out others is just another example of it.

Before anyone says 'well, you don't have to do that just show up', yeah, I know I can do that. But I honestly don't want to be around it. I've got land and equipment to make my own track, in any configuration I want, and my friends and I can partake however we want. Why would I go be around a bunch of people I don't want to be around when I could do that?

It's just my particular situation, but as I've said elsewhere, there are hundreds and probably even thousands of different situations for different people that are steering them in other directions.
Titan1 wrote:
I hear ya on that...I can't stand that attitude either, I hate it... One benefit of racing offroad stuff is there isn't much of that at...
I hear ya on that...I can't stand that attitude either, I hate it...

One benefit of racing offroad stuff is there isn't much of that at all...occasionally a moto bro will show up thinking off road is easy and for people too slow to race moto...but they don't usually last too long and pull out of the race half way because they are tired of getting passed all afternoon...usually with some stupid excuse "bike wasn't running right" or something stupid like "F that dust man...this is why I race moto".

Everyone in offroad knows there isn't a future in it (money wise...only a small small handful of guys get a paycheck to race off road-such that they don't have to have another job)...and that changes the attitude with which we participate...we're there for fun...so we help each other...look out for each other...and it don't matter if you show up on a 15 year old two stroke or the Rockstar Edition Husky 450...
Completely agree. The off road scene is so different! I really enjoyed it.

Doghouse- have you looked into the off road stuff at all?
doghouse
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3/14/2018 1:44pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Completely agree. The off road scene is so different! I really enjoyed it.

Doghouse- have you looked into the off road stuff at all?
Yeah, like I mentioned to Titan I actually started in offroad as a kid. Once my son gets a little older the next year or so I'm definitely thinking about doing some stuff here.
mxb2
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3/14/2018 1:53pm
People will find a way to do the things that they want to do. And also have an excuse for not doing it. One full day at the mx track isnt any different than being on your boat, fuel ,food, beer expense. Its how bad you want to do it. Some ride to get away from work, family stress. Some bring their family. All different situations.

The Shop

BobPA
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3/14/2018 2:20pm
BobPA wrote:
Track looked a bit too mellow for my liking. I still like tracks to have the option for some big jumps. I think Miles Mountain in...
Track looked a bit too mellow for my liking. I still like tracks to have the option for some big jumps.

I think Miles Mountain in PA really fits the bill. Awesome layout, great dirt, natural hills, big safe jumps. This video is from about two years ago...you get the idea.

https://youtu.be/lnaqVxNH6AA

Breezewood in PA also has a good setup. Their Vet track has a killer layout, and their main track is super fun
billyp330 wrote:
Do they get good turnouts for races? This is a vid of me at my local track TV Land MX. Track is nice and mellow and...
Do they get good turnouts for races?

This is a vid of me at my local track TV Land MX. Track is nice and mellow and has pretty good dirt. This is from a couple yrs ago, but other then a few things the track is pretty similar (the little whoops are gone mostly due to people complaining they were to difficult from what I heard)

This year they are hosting one of the Battle for Ohio races, so I'm really hoping they are going to get a great turnout.

They get good turnouts for races and practice days...and it is pretty far out in the middle of nowhere. They do not hold many events per year, I think that helps. Plus, the track is always prepped well, and the layout is so much fun.
731chopper
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3/14/2018 2:43pm
Frodad78 wrote:
I've been waiting on getting my suspension back, hope to make it to the Burleson round.
Right on!
doghouse
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3/14/2018 2:50pm
mxb2 wrote:
People will find a way to do the things that they want to do. And also have an excuse for not doing it. One full day...
People will find a way to do the things that they want to do. And also have an excuse for not doing it. One full day at the mx track isnt any different than being on your boat, fuel ,food, beer expense. Its how bad you want to do it. Some ride to get away from work, family stress. Some bring their family. All different situations.
Precisley
mattyhamz2
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3/14/2018 2:52pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Completely agree. The off road scene is so different! I really enjoyed it.

Doghouse- have you looked into the off road stuff at all?
doghouse wrote:
Yeah, like I mentioned to Titan I actually started in offroad as a kid. Once my son gets a little older the next year or so...
Yeah, like I mentioned to Titan I actually started in offroad as a kid. Once my son gets a little older the next year or so I'm definitely thinking about doing some stuff here.
I saw your reply after mine. haha sorry man!
Johnny Depp
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Buda, TX US
3/14/2018 3:00pm
731chopper wrote:
For people in here saying they no longer race or even ride because of dangerous tracks (I.e. big/steep jumps), I encourage you to look into your...
For people in here saying they no longer race or even ride because of dangerous tracks (I.e. big/steep jumps), I encourage you to look into your local vintage racing scene.

We have great vintage racing here in Texas with the TVRC as an example. It is very fun and there are classes for bikes from the beginning of time (like my 1975 KX250) all the way to 2008 two-strokes with both A and B classes. When I was young and taking moto seriously I never would have thought I’d enjoy racing old bikes but I can tell you that they are a freaking blast. You will experience much less carnage because even on a modern track, you don’t feel the need to huck the big gaps when you aren’t confident your bike can take the beating. If you like jumping everything on every track, don’t worry, we got you covered with the classes for 90s and 2000s two strokes but everyone still has work on Monday and understands no factory rides will be given out.

I’m sure some of the local moto bros look at people like me as a goon riding a pos and that’s fine, I get it, but I’m having a hell of a lot of fun on the weekends.

I did the drive to Rio Bravo for the Old School MX reunion event, only to be told by the 1st girl at the gate that I wouldn't be able to ride my modern bike. My bad for not reading up on it, but it caught me by surprise since I had ridden in previous years. It had been changed for a while. I wish they did modern bikes, but the place was absolutely packed with Vintage racers. I still had a great time with the Vintage bike show, and got to meet NewmannWoohoo

https://www.dirtrider.com/fun-times-at-rio-bravo-vintage-mx-2015



This track is still very much like it ever was in the 70's. It is still a dream to ride on a modern bike, and the jumps have no consequences, mostly flat landings. A dirt bike bucket list place.
doghouse
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3/14/2018 4:38pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Completely agree. The off road scene is so different! I really enjoyed it.

Doghouse- have you looked into the off road stuff at all?
doghouse wrote:
Yeah, like I mentioned to Titan I actually started in offroad as a kid. Once my son gets a little older the next year or so...
Yeah, like I mentioned to Titan I actually started in offroad as a kid. Once my son gets a little older the next year or so I'm definitely thinking about doing some stuff here.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I saw your reply after mine. haha sorry man!
Ha, no worries man.
ledger
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3/14/2018 5:35pm
pmshortt2 wrote:
As someone who grew up playing lots of video games for lots of hours, I also grew up hunting, fishing, riding 4 wheelers and dirtbikes, playing...
As someone who grew up playing lots of video games for lots of hours, I also grew up hunting, fishing, riding 4 wheelers and dirtbikes, playing and working outside, doing chores, etc. I believe the problem here lies with modern day parenting, not society in general.

A lot of parents now a days throw their kids an iPad, computer, Xbox, smartphone, whatever for birthday or Christmas and that’s it. Have fun bud, stay outta my hair, I’m busy. Parents these days don’t want to do much with their kids, which in turn creates a “snowflake.”

I was given a game system, Computer, smartphone as a kid growing up, but I also knew when my parents told me to get off and come help them with something outside, it was time to get the f**k off and come outside lol. My father also invested time in me teaching me skills and ethics, giving me chores, etc. Parents these days are too lazy and cheap to teach their kid anything and invest time into them. They look at buying them an iPad as giving them something to do. Just my 2 cents.
I can relate to some bowhunting and fish'n gotta love .... The Great Outdoors !! and motorcycles too.

omalley
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Snohomish, WA US
3/14/2018 5:57pm
For me, cost, etc has nothing to do with it. Three key factors keep me from having any desire to race anymore:
1) promoters who are greedy by having thirty or forty classes in a day. I’m there to ride/race and have fun. Why the F would I pay MORE money than a practice day, just so I can sit around all day for two or four 10 minute motos?! I can go to an open practice and pay less money to ride virtually all day. No brained for me. I’m 40 years old, I’m going nowhere in the sport-racing? Been there done that. Raced 40 plus weekends a year from 92-2002. No thanks.
I will hit the one off races that are unique (vet/OTH, police and fire, etc.

2) The keep up with the joneses mentality mentioned before. It’s rwally gotten ridiculous.

3) The entitled brats living off mom and Dad who are only into MX as the cool thing to do. They seem less prevalent at practice days. They’re out of hand on race days.
Indy mxer
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3/14/2018 6:05pm Edited Date/Time 3/14/2018 6:17pm
mxtech1 wrote:
I do own a track. I also have years' of experience being a club member for an AMA sanctioned track that hosts races. They typically only...
I do own a track.

I also have years' of experience being a club member for an AMA sanctioned track that hosts races.

They typically only race MX 2-3 times per year. It takes a full week of about 15 guys to prep for a single day event. Cutting the classes by over 50% would be well received.

You think it sucks sitting in your comfy setup waiting for your moto all day, try standing in the same corner flagging all day, or running a starting gate all day, or dragging around a fire hose trying to keep water down.

I will tell you for a fact that our race days are so long because of the dead time between each moto. Getting everyone staged and lined up, making sure the scorers are ready for the next moto and that the track is clear before dropping the gate.

If you could cut down on the classes and go to a more traditional format like 10 min + 1 lap moto we could drastically cut down on the length of day and be more efficient with the format.
billyp330 wrote:
[i]It takes a full week of about 15 guys to prep for a single day event[/I] Are you prepping your track with nothing but shovels and...
It takes a full week of about 15 guys to prep for a single day event

Are you prepping your track with nothing but shovels and rakes? How does it take a week with 15 guys to prep a track???

I don't own a racetrack (yet?) however have helped out scoring, discing, watering, sign ups and flagging at local tracks. We at most would go late afternoon on Saturday to start prepping track and mowing parking fields and we had about 3 guys total. On race day of course you need more people for scoring, flagging, track work and sign up, but I'm having a really hard time figuring out what your 15 guys are doing all week long in preparing for a race, unless you build your track from scratch every week.
I agree. Our group has been running and promoting races since the early 90's here in Indiana. AMA and non AMA.
So no, I don't know what it's like to sit in a comfy motor home. And I sure know how much work it takes.
15 guys to prep is absurd. And whatever track he rides that has that much downtime must be a piece of crap.

We don't stop racing until intermission, unless there's a rider down. Like most good tracks we're starting a class while the other is still finishing.

Cutting down to that few classes simply won't work. Since you said you own a track, post those classes for a race and see how many riders show up.
Indy mxer
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3/14/2018 6:36pm Edited Date/Time 3/14/2018 6:38pm
Many good points made on this thread.
I've been riding, racing and promoting moto for many years.
I still love to ride mx, but there are issues for sure.
Tracks to dangerous, risk of injury, and days too long are just a few.
Eliminating classes would be great, but it's very hard to do. I know, we've tried.

There's no doubt offroad racing is growing here as well. It's not my cup of tea, I still enjoy the rush I get from mx.
But I do know a lot of guys who like to ride/race offroad. Some are former mx'ers. Some do both.

I agree, that the tracks need to be fun for everyone.
My favorite around here is LTM in Casey IL. The promoter works his ass off maintaining and improving the track. Actually it's Bomber built.
At 61, I can pretty much do everything on it. It's wide, fun and he treats the riders well. His pricing isn't cheap but it's fair. Plus, I'll always pay more for quality.

He gets great turnouts. 2 weekends ago he had over 150 riders for Sat practice and over 500 for the race on Sunday.

731chopper
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3/14/2018 7:06pm
I did the drive to Rio Bravo for the Old School MX reunion event, only to be told by the 1st girl at the gate that...
I did the drive to Rio Bravo for the Old School MX reunion event, only to be told by the 1st girl at the gate that I wouldn't be able to ride my modern bike. My bad for not reading up on it, but it caught me by surprise since I had ridden in previous years. It had been changed for a while. I wish they did modern bikes, but the place was absolutely packed with Vintage racers. I still had a great time with the Vintage bike show, and got to meet NewmannWoohoo

https://www.dirtrider.com/fun-times-at-rio-bravo-vintage-mx-2015



This track is still very much like it ever was in the 70's. It is still a dream to ride on a modern bike, and the jumps have no consequences, mostly flat landings. A dirt bike bucket list place.
I love that track. Very safe and fun in my opinion. All of the jumps can be done on a 1970s short travel bike but they’re still fun on more modern bikes. The dirt is great in most places, it flows well and you can get a decent amount of speed built up in certain sections. I raced the old school reunion these past 2 years and had a blast. I even got to ride my splitfire pc bike in the 125 race this last time.
Bry145
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Bridgeville, PA US
3/14/2018 8:53pm
omalley wrote:
For me, cost, etc has nothing to do with it. Three key factors keep me from having any desire to race anymore: 1) promoters who are...
For me, cost, etc has nothing to do with it. Three key factors keep me from having any desire to race anymore:
1) promoters who are greedy by having thirty or forty classes in a day. I’m there to ride/race and have fun. Why the F would I pay MORE money than a practice day, just so I can sit around all day for two or four 10 minute motos?! I can go to an open practice and pay less money to ride virtually all day. No brained for me. I’m 40 years old, I’m going nowhere in the sport-racing? Been there done that. Raced 40 plus weekends a year from 92-2002. No thanks.
I will hit the one off races that are unique (vet/OTH, police and fire, etc.

2) The keep up with the joneses mentality mentioned before. It’s rwally gotten ridiculous.

3) The entitled brats living off mom and Dad who are only into MX as the cool thing to do. They seem less prevalent at practice days. They’re out of hand on race days.
I'm not sure it is "promoter greed" that is driving 30-40 classes. I think some racers demand these miscellaneous classes with only a few entries because it gives them a chance to do well or win. Those with fragile egos may not want to race 40 fast riders and finish 25th, even though that is quite an accomplishment in the A and B classes. Even in a stacked C class with the top ten going B class speed, a 15th place is pretty good for a rider with limited talent and cash.

I think a lot of progress could be made by capping the number of classes at 15 and doing timed motos to ensure everyone who races at least an hour of track time per event (including practice). I think that is plenty of riding in one day at race speed. I just did three 10 lap motos in a row at the Club MX Practice Facility (whooped out, sandy, and rough) and was quite satisfied and done for the day!

That said, I do not see this happening! Having a bunch of classes is like motocross #metoo. I want a trophy too! I can't compete in the A/B/C classes but still want to win! Give me a trophy, and make the fast racers wait all day for an 8 minute moto! Me too!

250A
250B
250C
450A
450B
450C
Vet A
Vet B
Vet C
Beginner Big Bike
50
65
85
125/Super-mini
Mini Open (65-Super Mini)

*Also, "entitled brats living off Mom and Dad" is a big problem in society. The economy and several industries are being propped up by adult children who live at home who refuse to move out on their own. If all parents gave adult kids the boot, their disposable income would dry up and several industries would take a hit.

moscrop940
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Temecula, CA US
3/14/2018 9:03pm
I was scrolling through insta today and was gutted to see this



Those guys have been around forever. Always a great "mom and pop" feel, and helped out a shit ton of riders. They also put on a free private rental at Glen Helen once a month....no strings attached, just show up and they covered the bill.

Scary shit when we start seeing guys like this closing their doors

mxpro252
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WA US
3/14/2018 11:36pm
moscrop940 wrote:
I was scrolling through insta today and was gutted to see this [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/03/14/249395/s1200_IMG_7139.jpg[/img] Those guys have been around forever. Always a great "mom and pop" feel...
I was scrolling through insta today and was gutted to see this



Those guys have been around forever. Always a great "mom and pop" feel, and helped out a shit ton of riders. They also put on a free private rental at Glen Helen once a month....no strings attached, just show up and they covered the bill.

Scary shit when we start seeing guys like this closing their doors

Pretty sad. Motorcycles are the biggest part of my identity and it's tough to see stuff like this. I still have friends that work at shops and tell me about the change they've seen over the past 10+ years. Truly just sad about it considering what great lessons and skills can come from the sport.
redrider400
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Homer, AK US
3/15/2018 3:50am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
Indy mxer
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3/15/2018 4:33am
omalley wrote:
For me, cost, etc has nothing to do with it. Three key factors keep me from having any desire to race anymore: 1) promoters who are...
For me, cost, etc has nothing to do with it. Three key factors keep me from having any desire to race anymore:
1) promoters who are greedy by having thirty or forty classes in a day. I’m there to ride/race and have fun. Why the F would I pay MORE money than a practice day, just so I can sit around all day for two or four 10 minute motos?! I can go to an open practice and pay less money to ride virtually all day. No brained for me. I’m 40 years old, I’m going nowhere in the sport-racing? Been there done that. Raced 40 plus weekends a year from 92-2002. No thanks.
I will hit the one off races that are unique (vet/OTH, police and fire, etc.

2) The keep up with the joneses mentality mentioned before. It’s rwally gotten ridiculous.

3) The entitled brats living off mom and Dad who are only into MX as the cool thing to do. They seem less prevalent at practice days. They’re out of hand on race days.
Bry145 wrote:
I'm not sure it is "promoter greed" that is driving 30-40 classes. I think some racers demand these miscellaneous classes with only a few entries because...
I'm not sure it is "promoter greed" that is driving 30-40 classes. I think some racers demand these miscellaneous classes with only a few entries because it gives them a chance to do well or win. Those with fragile egos may not want to race 40 fast riders and finish 25th, even though that is quite an accomplishment in the A and B classes. Even in a stacked C class with the top ten going B class speed, a 15th place is pretty good for a rider with limited talent and cash.

I think a lot of progress could be made by capping the number of classes at 15 and doing timed motos to ensure everyone who races at least an hour of track time per event (including practice). I think that is plenty of riding in one day at race speed. I just did three 10 lap motos in a row at the Club MX Practice Facility (whooped out, sandy, and rough) and was quite satisfied and done for the day!

That said, I do not see this happening! Having a bunch of classes is like motocross #metoo. I want a trophy too! I can't compete in the A/B/C classes but still want to win! Give me a trophy, and make the fast racers wait all day for an 8 minute moto! Me too!

250A
250B
250C
450A
450B
450C
Vet A
Vet B
Vet C
Beginner Big Bike
50
65
85
125/Super-mini
Mini Open (65-Super Mini)

*Also, "entitled brats living off Mom and Dad" is a big problem in society. The economy and several industries are being propped up by adult children who live at home who refuse to move out on their own. If all parents gave adult kids the boot, their disposable income would dry up and several industries would take a hit.

While I agree with the idea of less classes, as I've said before it's easier said than done. We've tried it. Unfortunately it's one of those, sounds good in theory ideas.

Trust me it's not promoter greed. I'd love to have less classes at our events. It would be easier on everyone for a number of reasons.

But most riders are not fit enough to do 10 laps. Hell I'm fit and I couldn't do 10 laps on rough track. That would be about a 20 to 25 minute moto. Although some could.

When I go to open ride days at my favorite track they split it into 15 minute sessions and a lot of riders don't do all of the laps for that.

The problem with eliminating classes as you suggest, is you have to give every rider the opportunity to run at least 2 classes. Not just some.
For instance in the class structure you suggest, good luck telling a 50cc parent that just spent over $4000 on a bike he only has 1 class to ride!

Plus as a 61 year old vet rider, I have no interest or business riding against 25 year olds. And it's not about the money, I'd love to see a full gate of over 55 riders. That would be a blast for me.
1
Bramlett321
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Texarkana, TX US
3/15/2018 4:46am
kawasa84 wrote:
Could you afford enough spare parts, practice, qualifiers, etc. to go after a Lorreta's championship?? even in your class? A lot of us could maybe spring...
Could you afford enough spare parts, practice, qualifiers, etc. to go after a Lorreta's championship?? even in your class?
A lot of us could maybe spring for some local racing, most, couldn't afford what it would take to be competitive to race out of state qualifiers and everything else, to chase a shot at Lorreta's
IMO the cost to race not to mention injury as I'm recovering from a broken back (fractured L2) but it's the length of the day at a motocross race to ride for 30 minutes. That being said we started racing Hare Scrambles years ago and up until October my injuries went way down and the time on the bike per dollar went way up. My 40B class usually has 12-20 guys racing!!! I know a lot of you guys hate the idea of riding woods just as I did in my earlier years....but get on a bike and get out there.
Indy mxer
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3/15/2018 4:48am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2018 4:51am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
While I agree 100% that bringing back more 2 strokes would help, to say that 4 strokes are the problem is to simplistic.

Unfortunately, there's a number of reasons the sport isn't growing as much as we'd like, many of them have been mentioned here. Some we can affect and some we can't.

Personally, my main bike is a Kawi 450, but I bought a used KTM SX125 to play around on. It's fun but I'll never give up my 4 stroke.

And as far as cost, that's not a big issue either imo. You can find new left overs in almost every brand at really good prices if you're on a budget.

But more importantly, I don't think the sport is dying out.
The last race I was at 2 weeks ago had over 500 entries. Although I realize that's not the norm.
billyp330
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3/15/2018 4:52am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
Sorry, but your completely wrong. As stated before by myself and a few others on here, local racing does not require a $10k 4 stroke in anyway. I personally ride an almost 10 yr old 450 that is completely competitive with any bike out there. Also, you can still race 2 strokes if you prefer, there is even special classes just for them. A good rider on a 250 2 stroke is competitive with a good rider on a 450. Moto at the local amateur level is like 95% rider and 5% bike.

As far as the safety debate on 2 strokes vs 4, that is a very complicated. Yes, the 4 strokes allow riders to push the speeds, therefore increasing impact when they crash. That makes sense as basic physics explains. However, 4 strokes are easier to ride, take less effort, and give you more traction. One could claim that they actually make crashes less likely. I guess one has to choose between several small crashes or a handful of bigger crashes. Now, before you go yelling "Big crashes cause severe injuries and small ones don't!", there are hundreds of factors in crashes other then just "big" or "small". And how do you really scale the crashes? I don't have the answer. All I know is I've seen horrible crashes on 2 and 4 strokes so I don't see a direct correlation with 4 strokes and injury causing crashes. Be awesome if vital or racerx or some big moto mag could go back and look at the number and severity of crashes yr by yr in 2 stroke era vs 4 stroke era. Giving us some real data to work with. That would be an awesome article IMO.

So please explain how 4 strokes are the problem again?
Bramlett321
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1071
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Texarkana, TX US
3/15/2018 4:55am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
I was listening to Jim Holley this morning on the Pulpmx show and he was talking about the injuries and more specifically Cole Seely. One thing he pointed out was the two vs four stroke debate and the safety of our sport, had Cole been on a 250 2 stroke he would not have attempted the quad that he saw a few other guys doing. It would have been triple single and then on your merry way to the next obstacle. That's the argument we face right there, some will say yes he'd have went for it anyway but we're in this pickle now and how do we get our asses out of it.
billyp330
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416
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4/3/2017
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Dorset, OH US
3/15/2018 5:01am
Indy mxer wrote:
While I agree 100% that bringing back more 2 strokes would help, to say that 4 strokes are the problem is to simplistic. Unfortunately, there's a...
While I agree 100% that bringing back more 2 strokes would help, to say that 4 strokes are the problem is to simplistic.

Unfortunately, there's a number of reasons the sport isn't growing as much as we'd like, many of them have been mentioned here. Some we can affect and some we can't.

Personally, my main bike is a Kawi 450, but I bought a used KTM SX125 to play around on. It's fun but I'll never give up my 4 stroke.

And as far as cost, that's not a big issue either imo. You can find new left overs in almost every brand at really good prices if you're on a budget.

But more importantly, I don't think the sport is dying out.
The last race I was at 2 weeks ago had over 500 entries. Although I realize that's not the norm.
I really don't see how manufacturers making 2 strokes again are going to help anything. After all, 3 out of the big 6 do make new 2 strokes so how is have 3 more options going to help anything?

Agree with the new leftovers. You can get some good deals on last yrs model bikes. In fact that is true with almost everything you buy. Cars, trucks, tractors. My last 3 big purchases (My wifes car, my ninja, and my tractor) were all leftover models that in total saved me around $8k (mmmm maybe I deserve a new 450?).

Those numbers are awesome. Last couple races I went to around me had at most 150 riders. Practice days are pretty hit and miss for some reason. Sometimes I go and there is like 20 riders, other times there are around 60+, just depends on the weekend I guess.

mmain62
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715
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2/7/2013
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Knoxville, IL US
3/15/2018 5:22am
Indy mxer wrote:
I agree. Our group has been running and promoting races since the early 90's here in Indiana. AMA and non AMA. So no, I don't know...
I agree. Our group has been running and promoting races since the early 90's here in Indiana. AMA and non AMA.
So no, I don't know what it's like to sit in a comfy motor home. And I sure know how much work it takes.
15 guys to prep is absurd. And whatever track he rides that has that much downtime must be a piece of crap.

We don't stop racing until intermission, unless there's a rider down. Like most good tracks we're starting a class while the other is still finishing.

Cutting down to that few classes simply won't work. Since you said you own a track, post those classes for a race and see how many riders show up.
I let you in on some insider info on the track MXTECH is a member of because I am a current member of this track. The motorcycle club here has a moto track and a flat track. The membership consists of more flat track guys than moto guys and unfortunately flat track rules the roost because they have 4 races a year compared to the 2 moto races and every time us mx guys mention any improvements all hell breaks loose.
Next: We are lucky to get 6 out of 40 guys to volunteer their time to help water and prep the week before (its all clay and is very dry here late in the season). The flat track is always pristine though ha.
After racing Casey on 3/4 I was really taken back with how well the place ran with all of the entries. I was the last moto of the day and got done just before sundown but didn't expect anything different with how many guys he had there. He has huge support from sponsors and the equipment to maintain the track. Galesburg MC does not.
Mxtech owns his own private track that is extremely fun to ride mostly all natural. He doesn't have races there, but he does have some good points in this thread. I think its the lack of man power that makes our days so long here locally. I also have a private track and know how hard it is to maintain with just a Kubota and no water truck.

PJRAUS
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1532
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5/28/2016
Location
AU
3/15/2018 8:35am
kb228 wrote:
I prefer to just go to practice days. Racing should cost $10 a class since youre actually getting less bike time than a $20/$25 practice day...
I prefer to just go to practice days. Racing should cost $10 a class since youre actually getting less bike time than a $20/$25 practice day. $25 class fee plus $10 gate fee for less than an hour of riding is stupid.
Wow! I wish! I'm going to do 4 races this year... The 4 rounds of the Victorian senior motocross championship...
Each round is run over 2 days. I'm going to race vets over 45's , c grade mx2 and c grade mx1.
Cost for entry based on last years cost...it may have gone up , is $120 for the first clas then an extra $ 80 per class thereafter. So my 4 weekends of racing will cost..just entry fees alone...no other costs brought into the equation..
$380 per race round times 4 rounds...soooo...$1,520 Australian dollars to run in 3 classes for 4 weekends of racing...
I could go to ride park at Baccus Marsh and ride as much as I want on the best track in the state with the best track prep you will ever find for $45 per day, so $90 per weekend or $360 for a shit load more track time than racing 4 weekends at the vics.
That's what most people are actually doing...I don't expect to find any more than 20 other riders on a gate with me in any class at the races..
It's lucky that I love to race more than just ride or common sense would prevail and I'd blow off racing completely and just get shit loads of track time in and save a fortune..
Titan1
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8625
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2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT US
3/15/2018 8:49am Edited Date/Time 3/15/2018 11:26am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
I think the "4 strokes are killing the sport" is a popular-though incorrect-opinion.

It is derived from the misnomer that a C, B, and to a lesser extent even an A class rider can't be competitive against 4 strokes on a 2 stroke...Common sense says that isn't even remotely true. In the C, and B classes (of which 90% of riders probably are) its probably 95% rider and like 5% bike...meaning its not the bike that's making them go slow.

The fact that "Johnny C class" incorrectly thinks he can't race on a 2 stroke and be competitive...doesn't mean its 4 strokes killing the sport...its ignorance, and keeping up with the jones's that's killing the sport more than the 4 strokes.

"Johnny C class" wants to have the "latest and greatest", and doesn't want to show up to the track with a bike that isn't perceived to be as cool as the one the guy pitted next to him is riding. So they don't race/ride because they can't afford the $10K 450, with the $1200 exhaust, $200 graphics, and $800 suspension...when the truth of the matter is that they wouldn't go any slower if they bought a 5 year old YZ250 for $3K, and put $2K into it to freshen it up...
BobPA
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8030
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Location
PA US
3/15/2018 8:53am
I was listening to Jim Holley this morning on the Pulpmx show and he was talking about the injuries and more specifically Cole Seely. One thing...
I was listening to Jim Holley this morning on the Pulpmx show and he was talking about the injuries and more specifically Cole Seely. One thing he pointed out was the two vs four stroke debate and the safety of our sport, had Cole been on a 250 2 stroke he would not have attempted the quad that he saw a few other guys doing. It would have been triple single and then on your merry way to the next obstacle. That's the argument we face right there, some will say yes he'd have went for it anyway but we're in this pickle now and how do we get our asses out of it.
Pure and utter speculation. How in the world does he know he would not have attempted that quad? You two stroke guys need to stop taking shots of premix in the morning. Pretty soon you will be claiming that cancer would be eliminated is two strokes ruled the Earth.

PS: I own more two strokes than 4
BobPA
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8030
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Location
PA US
3/15/2018 8:57am
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going...
The death of our sport is the 4 strokes. You can buy a Ducati for less than a 450. If this sport wants to survive, going back to two strokes is the only way. You have to be in an upper middle class family at least to be able to afford to race nowadays. If everyone would bring back the two strokes, It would not only make it more affordable, it would make racing a lot more safer. Good luck talking with the OEM's about this, by the way.
Show me a race ready Ducati that you can buy for less that $10K. Better yet, show me a brand new Ducati you can buy for less than $10K

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